Textiles Talk

Poncho versus Goretex

Question:

I was in LL Bean’s in Freeport this week and talked to one of their clerks in the outwear area.  They seem to know their stuff.  This fellow had used 2 and 3 layer Goretex jackets in heavy rains while backpacking and concluded that there was no great difference in staying dry.  He got wet both ways due to the pack pressing the jacket against his body. I’ve concluded that the only way to stay dry is to use a backpackers poncho that covers you and your pack.  Probably would wear a Goretex rain jack underneath.

The goretex won’t leak because there’s pressure against it.  It shouldn’t leak, period, as it’s impermeable to liquid water (if it does leak, call in the guarantee).  However, it certainly won’t breathe if there’s a pack pushing down on it from the other side since loaded packs are pretty tough things to drive water vapour through, so you’ll get a wet back from sweat.  2 or 3 layer won’t make any difference, like the man says.  They’re both 100% waterproof fabrics, but if you cut off their access to free air they’ve nowhere to breathe vapour *to*, so it stays around inside until it condenses back into your clothing as liquid. Thus, wearing a poncho over the top of a gtx jacket won’t help you: you’ll still get a sweaty back, and it’ll be sweatier still with the extra insulation the poncho provides. In prolonged, driving rain, you will get wet, as water will always wick its way in through holes (like the one at your head, and the ones that let your legs poke out) of anything but a sealed diver’s dry suit after a while.  A good jacket will make the difference between damp but warm, and saturated and cold.  *Warm* is the key: getting wet isn’t a problem, or swimming wouldn’t be popular, but if it leads to cold then you have problems. Pete. — Peter Clinch                    Dundee University & Teaching Hospitals Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 3637    Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177              Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK

Response:

the last two posts are very good. the main point being that no matter how hard you try, if you hike in the rain, you will eventually get wet. so the important thing is staying warm and comfortable. i am not talking about your gear now (another issue and also important) but just you. for myself, i use a cagoule. it is, simply, a long waterproof anorak. i dont carry rain pants. i can wear shortie gaiters if i really need to keep the water out of my boots and i dont care if my legs get wet (with the cagoule, it is only my calfs anyway). the cagoule gives me mobiltiy, works better for my arms since i have armholes (not like a poncho), and, in a pinch, it can act as a bivy sack (have to scrunch up a bit, but i said in a pinch). eventually, in a driving rain on a hike (dread the thought!!!) i will get wet due to leak and sweat, but the openess of the cagoule adds to the ventilation and helps maintain the comfort level as pointed out earlier. my choice. bmp

Response:

I hiked for two days of a six day trip on the PCT from Stevens Pass to STehekin in Washington last summer in the rain/mist/clouds.  My hiking partner had a goretex raincoat and I a poncho.  He wore rain pants and I shorts.  He had full leather hiking boots and I inexpensive fabric Nikes. We both sweat when walking on the flats or uphill when wearing rain gear. We both got wet.  And it wasn’t the rain that got us, it was the sweat and head high bushes/brush that leaned over the trail with waterweight that soaked us.  I don’t think it makes much difference what you wear as an outer layer and personal comfort as state of mind is probably most important. If you sweat you’re going to get wet, and if you walk in the rain for more than an hour you’re going to get wet.  The posts that emphasize staying warm rather than staying dry have the correct view in my opinion.  Walking downhill I put on all my clothes, my capilene bottoms and windpants, capilene top and fleece sweater, hat and gloves, and was just barely able to stay warm.  If I stood in one place for more than a minute, I began to shiver.  And it was only 50 degrees.   My boots dried within two hours after the rain stopped enough to put on dry socks that stayed dry.  My friend’s boots were wet for the rest of the trip.   Jeffrey Olson Seattle, Washington…

Response:

I’m a Goretex fan.  But if you’re in a driving rain while wearing a backpack, it won’t work.  At least that’s my experience. Or, just get wet.  What the h***, it’s summer! Comments? Thom – New Portland, Maine

I agree that you just can’t keep dry in pouring rain. In the summer I wear the short OR gaitors and enough clothes to keep me comfortably warm even wet. The gaitors help keep my boots from filling up with water. Ernie

Response:

<snip If you sweat you’re going to get wet, and if you walk in the rain for more than an hour you’re going to get wet.  The posts that emphasize staying warm rather than staying dry have the correct view in my opinion.  Walking downhill I put on all my clothes, my capilene bottoms and windpants, capilene top and fleece sweater, hat and gloves, and was just barely able to stay warm.  If I stood in one place for more than a minute, I began to shiver.  And it was only 50 degrees..

. Given that one will inevitably get wet when hiking in the Cascades… I’ve found the best way to stay warm is to layer with wool over lightweight capilene, (or microfleece or polypro) though for extended overnight trips the wool takes longer to dry out than fleece.  Beats any other fiber for warmth when wet though, just ask the sheep.  Same goes for wool socks, so what if your boots are wet, just as long as you generate enough heat to keep the water from freezing….

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip If you sweat you’re going to get wet, and if you walk in the rain for more than an hour you’re going to get wet.  The posts that emphasize staying warm rather than staying dry have the correct view in my opinion.  Walking downhill I put on all my clothes, my capilene bottoms and windpants, capilene top and fleece sweater, hat and gloves, and was just barely able to stay warm.  If I stood in one place for more than a minute, I began to shiver.  And it was only 50 degrees.. . Given that one will inevitably get wet when hiking in the Cascades… I’ve found the best way to stay warm is to layer with wool over lightweight capilene, (or microfleece or polypro) though for extended overnight trips the wool takes longer to dry out than fleece.  Beats any other fiber for warmth when wet though, just ask the sheep.  Same goes for wool socks, so what if your boots are wet, just as long as you generate enough heat to keep the water from freezing….

For those of you who wonder about the advantages of rain suits over ponchos just try walking in a good storm.  Aponcho does not give full protection and the non breathable materiel will get you totally wet eventually.  Also it does not cover your legs very well.  the poncho was designed for the army, not mountaineering.  Wear a good rain suit and carry a pack cover.  also ponchos are terrible for snow climbing and I would not want to try glissading with one.

Response:

For those of you who wonder about the advantages of rain suits over ponchos just try walking in a good storm.  Aponcho does not give full protection and the non breathable materiel will get you totally wet eventually.  Also it does not cover your legs very well.  the poncho was designed for the army, not mountaineering.  Wear a good rain suit and carry a pack cover.  also ponchos are terrible for snow climbing and I would not want to try glissading with one.

I have a coated nylon poncho that I like to use in the summer for below-treeline hikes.  However, ponchos can be a real danger on ridges.  The wind whips up the mountainside and (it seems) right into your poncho.  The thing bellows out like a parachute and could flip you over (or even off). — [I am not a Digital spokesperson] Digital Equipment Corporation  (603) 881-0168 Nashua, NH

Response:

While I do share other’s concerns about poncho’s on summits, ridgelines, etc, I don’t hike without a decent large one in my pack.  After many years of backpacking with my goretex rainwear, I finally got sick of water down my back between my pack and the jacket, plus the jacket finally getting soaked enough on the exterior to cause me to sweat profusely underneath.  Buying a $30 long poncho that covers me and my pack has been a godsend in all-day hikes in the rain.  I can leave my jacket opened under the poncho for ventilation, and arrive at my destination a lot drier all together. Give it a try – like I said, I wouldn’t go back. happy hiking, mike

Response:

For those of you who wonder about the advantages of rain suits over ponchos just try walking in a good storm.  Aponcho does not give full protection and the non breathable materiel will get you totally wet eventually.  Also it does not cover your legs very well.  the poncho was designed for the army, not mountaineering.  Wear a good rain suit and carry a pack cover.  also ponchos are terrible for snow climbing and I would not want to try glissading with one.

Each has it’s advantages, all of which have been stated (at least twice) by now.  As for a poncho protecting legs from wind and/or rain, I use a Colin’s kilt (after Colin Fletcher).  In a 1 qt ziplock bag, I carry a large trash bag with the bottom seam cut off.  When I need leg protection with my poncho (or just from dew- or rain-covered brush or grass), I step into the kilt, pull it up till it barely touches the ground, and tuck the top into my pack’s hip belt. Works for me.  I hope it works for you. –Jeff

Response:

Agree with Kbbach.  Save your warm dry stuff for when you stop.  I have hiked in summertime snow and wind in shorts, wool shirt and windbreaker. You don’t lose much heat through your legs.  Have hat and gloves though. Richard Allen

Response:

I’m a Goretex fan.  But if you’re in a driving rain while wearing a backpack, it won’t work.  At least that’s my experience.   I was in LL Bean’s in Freeport this week and talked to one of their clerks in the outwear area.  They seem to know their stuff.  This fellow had used 2 and 3 layer Goretex jackets in heavy rains while backpacking and concluded that there was no great difference in staying dry.  He got wet both ways due to the pack pressing the jacket against his body. I’ve concluded that the only way to stay dry is to use a backpackers poncho that covers you and your pack.  Probably would wear a Goretex rain jack underneath. Or, just get wet.  What the h***, it’s summer! Comments? Thom – New Portland, Maine

Response:

: I’m a Goretex fan.  But if you’re in a driving rain while : wearing a backpack, it won’t work.  At least that’s my : experience.   I’ve concluded that it is impossible to stay dry while hiking in the rain for prolonged periods.  For starters, I usually sweat enough just hiking in dry weather that dampness is already a problem. Adding rain gear of any type and then adding rain only makes things worse. IMO, the solution (if you can call it that) is to focus on staying comfortable rather than on staying dry.  There are 2 reasonable alternatives, it seems to me: 1) Traditional rain gear (of whatever variety) over    light poly underwear. 2) Light, non-waterproof nylon over pile (the so-called,    Buffalo clothing system). I generally go with the former of the 2 options. Most of the discussions center around what type of shell to use. Some like waterproof/breathables like Gtx, others like non-breathable jackets and still others like ponchos. Everybody will be wet by the end of 8 hours of walking in the rain so the question to ask is who is the most comfortable. I find that I stay more comfortable, am better protected by above treeline winds and can regulate my temperature best with a 3-layer Gtx jacket. But this is determined in large measure by where I live.  BTW, I also stay noticably more dry in Gtx than any of the alternatives. I find the later approach to be interesting. I have a good friend who has used this appproahc for years. You must accept getting wet. Dave Mann           | "It is impossible, or not easy, to do                     |  noble acts without the proper equipment."

Response:

I *once* wore a poncho on an extended hike, and I think I’m over that now. The poncho forever was catching on branches and getting whipped around in the wind, and the "horizontal rain" just slipped right in and drenched me. The Army no longer uses ponchos for units that do serious patrolling (read: long range hiking… heh,heh,heh..), instead they issue goretex jackets and rain pants. I don’t know what leg units use, although I would be very surprised if they use ponchos. I carry a poncho with me when I do a long hike, as it makes a serviceable pack cover, is good for around camp, and if you carry 550 cord (nylon parachute cord), it can make a good temporary shelter while you wait out the rain. Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  For those of you who wonder about the advantages of rain suits over ponchos just try walking in a good storm.  Aponcho does not give full protection and the non breathable materiel will get you totally wet eventually.  Also it does not cover your legs very well.  the poncho was designed for the army, not mountaineering.  Wear a good rain suit and carry a pack cover.  also ponchos are terrible for snow climbing and I would not want to try glissading with one.

Response:

I’ve found the best way to stay warm is to layer with wool over lightweight capilene, (or microfleece or polypro)

(Snipped) It has been my exprience that If I’m hiking I’m sweating. So the system I use to stay warm (not dry) is to wear shorts, long sleeved poly undershirt, wool shirt, wool socks and short gaiters. If there is any wind then I’ll don a breathable nylon windbreaker and nylon wind pants. I have found that this works fine as long as I keep moving. And when I get to camp I remove everything and get into dry clothes and waterproof rain gear.                              Cheers,                                               Ken B.

Response:

Filed under: fleece fabric

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