Filed under: fleece fabric
Question:
In article <7qh0lv0im7dkr2m37f7vdmv4gjua0vv…@4ax.com>, m…@privacy.net says… > I would like to sleep on my back, but it seems that when I do, my head > sort of gets jammed into my chest. Like when a crummy barber is > trimming the hair in back and he shoves your head down. > Is there a pillow or something I can get to elevate my back and > shoulders so I can sleep better on my back?
You might try just elevating or supporting your neck- avoid a standard pillow completely and use a tube pillow… This link was posted a while ago, either here or in a NeckBreathers group… http://www.barelysurviving.com/prod.htm the pillow is not too expensive, and IIRC the reviews posted then were all positive. To test the theory, I tried using a tightly rolled fleece blanket jammed into an extra-large sock. Bedammed, but the thing worked like a charm. I never did order one though… by the time I found this I already had the trach done, and this type pillow ‘dragged’ the collar (annoying) or blocked the tube (really annoying) if I rolled over. Another thing to look for is a foam wedge- some of the larger craft or fabric stores may have them in various sizes and ‘rise’ length. A couple of different sizes can make a decent ramp that can be "adjusted" for total height. — Sleepless by choice not chance, Vic
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Victor Radin wrote: > In article <7qh0lv0im7dkr2m37f7vdmv4gjua0vv…@4ax.com>, m…@privacy.net > says… >>I would like to sleep on my back, but it seems that when I do, my head >>sort of gets jammed into my chest. Like when a crummy barber is >>trimming the hair in back and he shoves your head down. >>Is there a pillow or something I can get to elevate my back and >>shoulders so I can sleep better on my back? > You might try just elevating or supporting your neck- avoid a standard > pillow completely and use a tube pillow… > This link was posted a while ago, either here or in a NeckBreathers > group… http://www.barelysurviving.com/prod.htm the pillow is not too > expensive, and IIRC the reviews posted then were all positive. > To test the theory, I tried using a tightly rolled fleece blanket jammed > into an extra-large sock. Bedammed, but the thing worked like a charm. I > never did order one though… by the time I found this I already had the > trach done, and this type pillow ‘dragged’ the collar (annoying) or > blocked the tube (really annoying) if I rolled over. > Another thing to look for is a foam wedge- some of the larger craft or > fabric stores
Also bed and bath stores. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> may have them in various sizes and ‘rise’ length. A couple > of different sizes can make a decent ramp that can be "adjusted" for > total height.
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I would like to sleep on my back, but it seems that when I do, my head sort of gets jammed into my chest. Like when a crummy barber is trimming the hair in back and he shoves your head down. Is there a pillow or something I can get to elevate my back and shoulders so I can sleep better on my back?
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Go to a really good medical supply house. There is an incredible variety of ’special needs’ pillows. regards, eric pearson db2e…@nospammindspring.com On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:44:27 -0500, "Thad the man (m…@privacy.net)" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<m…@privacy.net> wrote: >I would like to sleep on my back, but it seems that when I do, my head >sort of gets jammed into my chest. Like when a crummy barber is >trimming the hair in back and he shoves your head down. >Is there a pillow or something I can get to elevate my back and >shoulders so I can sleep better on my back?
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Question:
Just to sicken you all :0) The past two weeks have been glorious in Manchester UK! Clear blue skies, loads of sun, in fact more sun than we had all last summer!
Doesn’t bother me. Although I live in Canada, in my part of the world we’ve had no snow at all this winter. I believe we got a half inch or so last year in January. Mind you I can’t say it *never* snows here, for instance we got around three feet of it back in 1996. It’s just really really rare. Before that the last time we got a really big snow was 1968. Last week we actually got below freezing for a couple of days. Why it got down as low as -2 celsius (around 28 fahrenheit) and I was feeling hard done by. This week we have a bit more cloud and the morning temperatures are well above freezing. Ed Seedhouse "I’m on my second cup of coffee and I still can’t face the day"
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’re on our way to Tampa Bay in about 15 minutes. My wife’s daughter announced that she was pregnant. I will have to restrain my wife to keep her at the speed limit. BTW: Michigan Februarys are: 1. Grey 2. Cold 3. Gray 4 Windy 5. Grey 6. and finally, gray. Regards Old Al
Have a good trip and a wonderful and balmy March! Evelyn
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Congratulations on the incipient grand child. (And on escaping the snow, as well.) — Frank Palmer
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Al have a fabulous time,. If there was ever a winter to do to Florida this is it, Too bad you couldnt go a few weeks earlier. The difference between Michigan and New York, is gray is not a word we use often, it is sunny and freezing and sunny and freezing until the snows come. Loretta — In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism.
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How I envy you. I just came in from shoveling snow…AGAIN! The good news is I burned 700 calories! — Best wishes Louise Type 2, controlling by diet and exercise
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’re on our way to Tampa Bay in about 15 minutes. My wife’s daughter announced that she was pregnant. I will have to restrain my wife to keep her at the speed limit. BTW: Michigan Februarys are: 1. Grey 2. Cold 3. Gray 4 Windy 5. Grey 6. and finally, gray. Regards Old Al
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have fun in florida! and keep to the speed limit……. lol k – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’re on our way to Tampa Bay in about 15 minutes. My wife’s daughter announced that she was pregnant. I will have to restrain my wife to keep her at the speed limit. BTW: Michigan Februarys are: 1. Grey 2. Cold 3. Gray 4 Windy 5. Grey 6. and finally, gray. Regards Old Al
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Oklahoma winters are usually fairly mild with a few gray, cold days scattered around. This year, El Nino has blessed us with the first white Christmas in my 18 year old’s life time, and plenty of cold gray days.
Marie, we lived in OKC in the 80’s and it’s the only place we’ved lived where the temp in January can be 76 or 16! You have to be prepared for anything. They say in Oklahoma, if you don’t like the weather, just wait for tomorrow. I remember I put my son’s shorts away and I had to get them out, because it got so warm! I also remember a very bad ice storm at Christmastime. The ice was about 4 inches thick. I think Garth Brooks wrote a song about being stuck in it trying to get home. I’ve had it up to my ears with the snow here this year (just finished shoveling another 6 inches!), but I’ll take snow over ice any day! — Best wishes Louise Type 2, controlling by diet and exercise
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January and February around here in Tennessee have been cold, gray, and wet. Haven’t seen sunshine in ages. Hope you have a wonderful week, and,when you get back will you please report to the rest of us as to whether there is actually a sun still out there? — A person may fall and fall many times but he is not a failure until he blames someone else for pushing him. (Tom Collons) Posted via Active Low-Carber Forums, for Low-Carb & Atkins Diet Support http://forum.lowcarber.org & http://www.lowcarb.ca
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nopie posted this… January and February around here in Tennessee have been cold, gray, and wet. Haven’t seen sunshine in ages. Hope you have a wonderful week, and,when you get back will you please report to the rest of us as to whether there is actually a sun still out there?
Just to sicken you all :0) The past two weeks have been glorious in Manchester UK! Clear blue skies, loads of sun, in fact more sun than we had all last summer! So I took the opportunity and got out and about more, getting some gentle exercise. It helped. The BG numbers have been rather good… Ratty — A BTOpenworld Asylum Seeker ratty at flyingrat dot net
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We’re on our way to Tampa Bay in about 15 minutes. My wife’s daughter announced that she was pregnant. I will have to restrain my wife to keep her at the speed limit. BTW: Michigan Februarys are: 1. Grey 2. Cold 3. Gray 4 Windy 5. Grey 6. and finally, gray. Regards Old Al
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Lol Al Southern New England winters are constantly a surprise, no two alike. This year they are white cold whiter colder white with a lot of soot on top and cold (and congratulations on the upcoming g-child) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’re on our way to Tampa Bay in about 15 minutes. My wife’s daughter announced that she was pregnant. I will have to restrain my wife to keep her at the speed limit. BTW: Michigan Februarys are: 1. Grey 2. Cold 3. Gray 4 Windy 5. Grey 6. and finally, gray. Regards Old Al
bill_supon at yahoo dot com
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Hi Al Congrats on the expected arrival of a new grandchild. Oklahoma winters are usually fairly mild with a few gray, cold days scattered around. This year, El Nino has blessed us with the first white Christmas in my 18 year old’s life time, and plenty of cold gray days. It has been so cold and gray for so long (a little over a week <L) that the other day when I was at the fabric store to get fabric for throw pillows, I also bought 3 yards of bright yellow lightweight sweatshirt fleece. I have no idea what I will use it for, but it sure is cheery to look at. Have a wonderful visit in Florida. Marie, Caretaker Mom T2 Dx 3/2002
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’re on our way to Tampa Bay in about 15 minutes. My wife’s daughter announced that she was pregnant. I will have to restrain my wife to keep her at the speed limit. BTW: Michigan Februarys are: 1. Grey 2. Cold 3. Gray 4 Windy 5. Grey 6. and finally, gray. Regards Old Al
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Question:
I use three different gloves depending on temperatures: Simple $2 gardener gloves work fine between about 15-30F degree windchill. Then more hefty winter gloves from 0-15F wind chill. Then something like ski-mittens (no individual fingers) or double gloves below 0F. At this point you also need to think about covering your nose, ears, and gender protubrences.
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About 18 years ago my parents bought me some goretex mittens. I’ve worn them in sub-zero (fahrenheit) temperatures and they worked fine. They’re even pretty good when wet. They’re the only pair I wear (even temperatures in the 30’s-40’s, although my hands can sweat in the warmer conditions). I’ve had to resew some of the stichting a few times, but they’re still holding up. Once these wear out, I’m getting another pair. Kurt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This winter will be my first living and running in regularly cold weather. I figure in about a month I’ll need a LOT more on my hands than the old, non-water-resistent brown gardening gloves I have used in rare cases in the past. Suggestions? Chris
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This winter will be my first living and running in regularly cold weather. I figure in about a month I’ll need a LOT more on my hands than the old, non-water-resistent brown gardening gloves I have used in rare cases in the past. Suggestions? Chris
I bought some army wool glove liners at an surplus store and they work great. They are not bulky, they stay warm even when wet, and they only cost me $3. If temps are below 10F, then I add polypro liners. Tim
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This winter will be my first living and running in regularly cold weather. I figure in about a month I’ll need a LOT more on my hands than the old, non-water-resistent brown gardening gloves I have used in rare cases in the past. Suggestions?
Thin poly gloves you can get at REI are all I wear down to 15 F or so. I don’t favor anything fleece as it’s not wind proof. Poly wicks moisture and seems to provide adequate wind protection and warmth (keep in mind your hands will warm up if you make a loose fist with thumbs tucked in for extra warmth when it’s cold.) For colder temps I’ll put my poly’s inside a wool mit and use a face mask (otherwise my lips and nose get just a wee bit too cool…) Tom Phillips
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Chris I agree with what most of the others have suggested…. Depends on how you take the cold, imho. In my case, anything above 20 degrees I put my hands inside whatever long sleeve shirts I have on. ( you know…in the ends of the sleeves) When it’s colder than that…mittens. Polyprop, or some other wicking material. Love the mittens. After a couple miles they start to sweat. When it gets really cold….go a store in your area that sells "Orvis" stuff. They make a great face mask. From what I have seen, Orvis is big out your way. Pesonally, I only wear an ear band unless it is well below zero windchill. Above all, (or below all) protect the unit. It can and will get frost nipped. Consider a pair of specialty undies. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This winter will be my first living and running in regularly cold weather. I figure in about a month I’ll need a LOT more on my hands than the old, non-water-resistent brown gardening gloves I have used in rare cases in the past. Suggestions? Chris
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This winter will be my first living and running in regularly cold weather. I figure in about a month I’ll need a LOT more on my hands than the old, non-water-resistent brown gardening gloves I have used in rare cases in the past. Suggestions? Chris
Chris, Everybody is different so take any advice with a grain of salt. Start off light and work your way up. Around 40F I’ll put on a pair of thin polypropylene glove liners. Below 30F I have a pair of thicker glvoe liners. Below 20F I use a pair of thin fleece mittens. When it gets really cold I’ll wear a pair of liners beneath the mittens. About material. Synthetic is better than cotton for most folks. Windproof is always nice but not always necessary. When I don’t have enough on my hands I’ll pull my sleeves over my hands, always good for the rest of the run. There are some medical conditions (Reynards Syndrome) where circulation to extremities are poor. In these cases even the thickest down glove isn’t enough when it is just cool. Hope this helps, Andy
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This winter will be my first living and running in regularly cold weather. I figure in about a month I’ll need a LOT more on my hands than the old, non-water-resistent brown gardening gloves I have used in rare cases in the past. Suggestions? Chris
iirc, you’re in the northern Virginia area but can’t remember if you’re closer to DC or Shenandoah, but not real relevant. But you just moved from Louisiana, iirc, so your cold tolerance may be less than some others until you get used to it. In our medium and coldest temps (probably about -20F to +20F, maybe a little warmer if windy), I use light to medium ski mittens (not the really heavy ones) since they are insulated and have somewhat of a wind/water resistant shell. In the warmer weather, like the +35 to +42F, like we’ve got now, I’ll wear a light fleece glove, maybe (I think last night is the first I’ve worn anything on my hands while running this year and that’s because it was windy and almost raining). My windstopper gloves (no insulation) will get worn when a little cooler and for biking right now. After (IF, depending on weather) I get warmed up, the gloves/mittens are frequently shed after the hat – reason why I always run with pockets of some sort. Mittens are much warmer and more flexible than gloves. You’re fingers share the heat and there’s less surface area for heat loss. And if it’s really cold, you can stick chemical handwarmers in there. I’ve only needed to do that when biking in 0F temperatures. BTW, the windstopper fabric really does stop wind. There are similarly named fabrics, like windbloc, that I’m not sure how they got their name. The salesperson at REI showed me how to blow through the fabric in the store to check for true windproofness – and it was an REI fabric that he was demonstrating to me wasn’t windproof. Maybe you’ll get to play in the snow this year, too 
Dot
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This winter will be my first living and running in regularly cold weather. I figure in about a month I’ll need a LOT more on my hands than the old, non-water-resistent brown gardening gloves I have used in rare cases in the past. Suggestions? Chris
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This winter will be my first living and running in regularly cold weather. I figure in about a month I’ll need a LOT more on my hands than the old, non-water-resistent brown gardening gloves I have used in rare cases in the past. Suggestions?
You didn’t supply many details about your situation. 1) What temperatures will you be dealing with? 2) Will it be windy, icy, wet/dry? 3) Do you want to be fashionable or comfortable? 4) Do you live in Alaska or Florida or (god forbid) somewhere OUTSIDE the beloved US of A? 5) Do you deal in F or C (see question 4)? 6) Are you a wimp or a sub 3:45, tough as nails, marathoner? Where I live, you can get small gloves from Zellers (Like Walmart or K-mart) for about $1.00. They are neither water proof nor very warm. I use these to about -10 Dec C. Anything warmer or more water proof cause my hands to sweat and become sopping wet after 5 miles of running. Colder than that, a warmer pair of fleece gloves does the trick. I don’t usually go outside at temperatures lower than -25 Deg C. It is possible, but I somehow can’t drag myself out of a warm bed when it is that cold. Perhaps Dot in Alaska can tell us how she prepares for cold weather running.
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Oops, yes, I should have given more details, thanks for the information you provided anyway about gloves. Maybe my el cheapo $1.99 gloves are fine after all, but per your questions: 1) What temperatures will you be dealing with? single-digits to 40 F degrees 2) Will it be windy, icy, wet/dry? not sure, it’s my first year here and there is a sustained drought here, but probably only moderate winds, some occasional ice and snow/sleet but just dry and cold most of the time when I’ll be running from Nov. 15 to mid-February (before and after those dates I’ll be in marathon recovery and not running much). Lows here have only reached high 40’s F so far this fall so I haven’t needed gloves. 3) Do you want to be fashionable or comfortable? Comfortable, but I do prefer lightweight and smaller gloves if possible. 4) Do you live in Alaska or Florida or (god forbid) somewhere OUTSIDE the beloved US of A? rolling hills of southern Virginia 5) Do you deal in F or C (see question 4)? F 6) Are you a wimp or a sub 3:45, tough as nails, marathoner? best marathon finish only 4:27, shooting for under 4:20 this month, sub-4 next year, and reasonably tough about rain, heat, mud, bugs, wind, changing surfaces, dogs, skunks, etc., but my hands stay uncomfortable more consistently during runs in really cold weather than the rest of me. I’m not one of the runners with that condition whose name I can’t recall that causes particular problems with cold hands, just looking for a little bit of an edge in comfort when things get really cold outside. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This winter will be my first living and running in regularly cold weather. I figure in about a month I’ll need a LOT more on my hands than the old, non-water-resistent brown gardening gloves I have used in rare cases in the past. Suggestions? You didn’t supply many details about your situation. 1) What temperatures will you be dealing with? 2) Will it be windy, icy, wet/dry? 3) Do you want to be fashionable or comfortable? 4) Do you live in Alaska or Florida or (god forbid) somewhere OUTSIDE the beloved US of A? 5) Do you deal in F or C (see question 4)? 6) Are you a wimp or a sub 3:45, tough as nails, marathoner? Where I live, you can get small gloves from Zellers (Like Walmart or K-mart) for about $1.00. They are neither water proof nor very warm. I use these to about -10 Dec C. Anything warmer or more water proof cause my hands to sweat and become sopping wet after 5 miles of running. Colder than that, a warmer pair of fleece gloves does the trick. I don’t usually go outside at temperatures lower than -25 Deg C. It is possible, but I somehow can’t drag myself out of a warm bed when it is that cold. Perhaps Dot in Alaska can tell us how she prepares for cold weather running.
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Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was running google searches the other day, looking for reviews on different waterproof/breathable materials. It always annoys me how much hype there is and how little real information is freely available. So I was impressed when I came across this review: http://www.backpackinglight.com/index/28/ Curt Peterson is proposing using simple tests that can be done at home using readily available items to evaluate the water resistance, wind resistance, and breathability of different shell materials. He describes the tests and lists the results for some of the fabrics he tested. Interesting stuff. But it would be intersting to hear what our resident experts have to say about this. (One of the things that jumped out at me is that using different hair driers would yield different results for the wind resistance test and so the results wouldn’t be duplicable going with the information available in the article…) Still, given the vacuum of readily available information on shell fabrics, the idea of using simple tests to cut through the B.S. is appealing. Whether this can be done reliably is different issue though. Thanks for the laugh. It’s amazing that someone can waste so much time creating useless tests while doing so little research beforehand. Well at least the wind resistance test is okay for fleece and such but it doesn’t get up to real speed and, as you point out, it can’t be compared with others. His waterproofness test is way too low in pressure and doesn’t take numerous washings into account, among other things. That breathability test changes considerably when conditions are suboptimal or with a different face fabric. Simple tests like these proved inadequate 20 years ago (when WP/Bs came out) to show the full picture. And even with all the fancy test data on fabrics in hand, it still won’t tell you how a particular garment will perform.
No tests will. But here’s a few ideas if you want to do your own testing. Waterproofness. Try a hosepipe with variable spray settings. That way you can find out whether the garments leaks at seams or vents as well as whether the fabric is waterproof. Windproofness. Pull a section of fabric over your mouth and blow through it. If you can’t it’s windproof. Breathability. Soak the outside of the garment. Run up a hill. Check for condensation. Repeat again and again with different garments underneath and in different weather conditions. Best of all. Wear the stuff in the wilds and see how it performs. Play around with garment combinations.
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I was running google searches the other day, looking for reviews on different waterproof/breathable materials. It always annoys me how much hype there is and how little real information is freely available. So I was impressed when I came across this review: http://www.backpackinglight.com/index/28/ Curt Peterson is proposing using simple tests that can be done at home using readily available items to evaluate the water resistance, wind resistance, and breathability of different shell materials. He describes the tests and lists the results for some of the fabrics he tested. Interesting stuff. But it would be intersting to hear what our resident experts have to say about this. (One of the things that jumped out at me is that using different hair driers would yield different results for the wind resistance test and so the results wouldn’t be duplicable going with the information available in the article…) Still, given the vacuum of readily available information on shell fabrics, the idea of using simple tests to cut through the B.S. is appealing. Whether this can be done reliably is different issue though.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was running google searches the other day, looking for reviews on different waterproof/breathable materials. It always annoys me how much hype there is and how little real information is freely available. So I was impressed when I came across this review: http://www.backpackinglight.com/index/28/ Curt Peterson is proposing using simple tests that can be done at home using readily available items to evaluate the water resistance, wind resistance, and breathability of different shell materials. He describes the tests and lists the results for some of the fabrics he tested. Interesting stuff. But it would be intersting to hear what our resident experts have to say about this. (One of the things that jumped out at me is that using different hair driers would yield different results for the wind resistance test and so the results wouldn’t be duplicable going with the information available in the article…) Still, given the vacuum of readily available information on shell fabrics, the idea of using simple tests to cut through the B.S. is appealing. Whether this can be done reliably is different issue though.
Thanks for the laugh. It’s amazing that someone can waste so much time creating useless tests while doing so little research beforehand. Well at least the wind resistance test is okay for fleece and such but it doesn’t get up to real speed and, as you point out, it can’t be compared with others. His waterproofness test is way too low in pressure and doesn’t take numerous washings into account, among other things. That breathability test changes considerably when conditions are suboptimal or with a different face fabric. Simple tests like these proved inadequate 20 years ago (when WP/Bs came out) to show the full picture. And even with all the fancy test data on fabrics in hand, it still won’t tell you how a particular garment will perform.
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Better yet, read user reviews (not those commercials in Backpacker). If more people consistently say product X doesn’t meet its claims, I don’t buy product X. Simple, unscientific, and effective. I don’t get wet out there unless I want to…
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Question:
S. dollars. I wonder why MEC products almost never seem to be included in product reviews in the U.S. mags. Because they don’t advertise in the mags?
As far as I know, they don’t advertize period. — — LITTLE KNOWN FACT: Did you know that 90% of North Americans cannot taste the difference between fried dog and fried cat?
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I’ll toss in my two cents… I was looking the marmot driclime on the discount rack in the Bent Gate in Golden last year. The owner (Dave?) told me he owned one, and wouldn’t recommend it to anyone because it was cut poorly and came up from under the harness everytime he reached up, didn’t work well in a layering system (breaths poorly), and got quickly shredded when used as an outer layer. He basically said it was way to expensive and less practical than a layer of capalene and a cheap windbreaker. My theory is when the guy who gets to wear anything and makes money if he sells something to you says it sucks, that it sucks. Eventually my wife picked me up an Arctyrx Schoeller fabric shirt, and that is my new alpine climbing shell. I’ll give it a plug because it breaths well, nearly wind proof, pretty damn water proof, and cut so that it stays under the harness, and the sleeves stay up if you push em up. Those guys have the little things dialed. It isn’t cheap however. Cheers, Frank
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Also look at the Marmot Driclime windshirt, light, mostly windproof, and a small fleece inner. … tmc Is the Marmot DriClime Windshirt really everything it’s made out to be? I looked at it but it doesn’t seem worth the $120 price. In the MEC catalog they noticed that they have the "MEC Flashpoint 2" which seems to essentially be a clone of the DriClime Windshirt for less than half the price (about $45 I think). I’m thinking of trying that.
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Cross Border hikes ?? As in US to Mexico and back ?? Jeff "Those who discourage your dreams, Have abandond theirs."
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On a different note, I’ve been looking through my MEC catalog and their web site lately and have been pretty impressed with what they’re offering. Lately they’ve gotten most of their stuff up on their web site and have a one click currency conversion tool so you can see what anything costs in U.S. dollars. I wonder why MEC products almost never seem to be included in product reviews in the U.S. mags.
Because they don’t advertise in the mags? (Also, most climbing and skiing gear from MEC can’t be shipped to the US. Not *too* bad for those of us near the border who desire an excuse for a roadtrip to Vancouver, but not too practical for someone in Dallas.) -Mike
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For what it’s worth, I have the Marmot version and I think it is THE Sh**T. I only wish it had a hood on it…
I agree, I wish I had the hood too. They now make a hoody Driclime. Sells for 139. I think. I think it too is sub 12 oz. tmc
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: : On a different note, I’ve been looking through my MEC catalog and : their web site lately and have been pretty impressed with what they’re : offering. Lately they’ve gotten most of their stuff up on their web : site and have a one click currency conversion tool so you can see what : anything costs in U.S. dollars. I wonder why MEC products almost never : seem to be included in product reviews in the U.S. mags. : Because they don’t advertise in the mags? : (Also, most climbing and skiing gear from MEC can’t be : shipped to the US. Not *too* bad for those of us near the : border who desire an excuse for a roadtrip to Vancouver, but : not too practical for someone in Dallas.) All the MEC brand clothes (powerdry baselayers, other malden fllece layers, etc.) can be shipped to the US. Thir stuff is easily as nice as "name brands" and is dirt-cheap in US dollars. Shipping took forever, but I’m in the middle of nowhere, so all mail takes forever.
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All the MEC brand clothes (powerdry baselayers, other malden fllece layers, etc.) can be shipped to the US. Thir stuff is easily as nice as "name brands" and is dirt-cheap in US dollars. Shipping took forever, but I’m in the middle of nowhere, so all mail takes forever.
That’s good then. Don’t order more than $200 (US) in any one package if you want to avoid potentially ruinous customs charges. -Mike
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I got a similar product with the EMS brand and it has turned out to be one of my favorite pieces of outdoor clothing. In some ways it is better than the Marmot product because it has full pit zips.
Anybody tall have a driclime or similar? I’d like to get one, but do not want to end up walking around with my wrists hanging out. I know the Marmot and MEC windshirts do not come in tall sizes, and the MEC phone rep steered me away when I told him my height. I’m 6′3". I need to try one on somewhere…
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I got a similar product with the EMS brand and it has turned out to be one of my favorite pieces of outdoor clothing. In some ways it is better than the Marmot product because it has full pit zips. Anybody tall have a driclime or similar? I’d like to get one, but do not want to end up walking around with my wrists hanging out. I know the Marmot and MEC windshirts do not come in tall sizes, and the MEC phone rep steered me away when I told him my height. I’m 6′3". I need to try one on somewhere…
I’m 6′2" and have fairly long arms. Just get an XL and you should be fine. Mark — mark "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to teach him to hold in higher regard those who think alike rather than those who think differently." –Nietzsche
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For what it’s worth, I have the Marmot version and I think it is THE Sh**T. I only wish it had a hood on it… When I was looking at buying one, I went to the EMS store in Boulder and when I couldn’t find it I asked the attendant for help. He proceeded to show me the EMS version and told me that because they offered an EMS version they had stopped selling the Marmot ones. He then disuaded me from buying the EMS version and told me to get the Marmot at Neptune’s… (something to do with the quality of the inner liner I think) My two cents. WT
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I got a similar product with the EMS brand and it has turned out to be one of my favorite pieces of outdoor clothing. In some ways it is better than the Marmot product because it has full pit zips. Anybody tall have a driclime or similar? I’d like to get one, but do not want to end up walking around with my wrists hanging out. I know the Marmot and MEC windshirts do not come in tall sizes, and the MEC phone rep steered me away when I told him my height. I’m 6′3". I need to try one on somewhere…
Hmm, I guess the REI-outlet sale of the Moonstone Profusion (very similar to the DriClime windshirt) at $39 a piece won’t help you, seeing how they only have Men’s Extra Small left. Still this is a great deal for anyone out there if it fits you. See if the EMS Windshear comes in your size. I think that Patagonia also has a version you may want to look at. If not, look at stuff by Buffalo, RAB, and Montane in the UK dot.com shops. I’m interested in getting the DriClime windshirt or something similar after first hearing about this type of layering from Marc Twight’s _Extreme Alpinism_ book. I guess that the idea is to have a windproof layer close to the skin right after a think wicking layer in order to act as a semi-permeable vapor barrier (more of a vapor-speed bump I guess). Seems that everyone who uses this system really likes it. My concern regarding the MEC Flashpoint II jacket is that it uses a Versatech Lite shell instead of ripstop nylon. The Versatech is probably much better in wet conditions, but I am concerned that it may be less breathable than nylon and make the jacket clammy. Since I would primarily be using it in the Sierra (which is quite dry most of the time) the versatech may be overkill. Unfortunately I have yet to hear from anyone with firsthand exprience with the Flashpoint. On a different note, I’ve been looking through my MEC catalog and their web site lately and have been pretty impressed with what they’re offering. Lately they’ve gotten most of their stuff up on their web site and have a one click currency conversion tool so you can see what anything costs in U.S. dollars. I wonder why MEC products almost never seem to be included in product reviews in the U.S. mags.
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I got a similar product with the EMS brand and it has turned out to be one of my favorite pieces of outdoor clothing. In some ways it is better than the Marmot product because it has full pit zips.
The marmot driclime does not? Mine does. tmc
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… Also look at the Marmot Driclime windshirt, light, mostly windproof, and a small fleece inner. … tmc
Is the Marmot DriClime Windshirt really everything it’s made out to be? I looked at it but it doesn’t seem worth the $120 price. In the MEC catalog they noticed that they have the "MEC Flashpoint 2" which seems to essentially be a clone of the DriClime Windshirt for less than half the price (about $45 I think). I’m thinking of trying that.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Also look at the Marmot Driclime windshirt, light, mostly windproof, and a small fleece inner. … tmc Is the Marmot DriClime Windshirt really everything it’s made out to be? I looked at it but it doesn’t seem worth the $120 price. In the MEC catalog they noticed that they have the "MEC Flashpoint 2" which seems to essentially be a clone of the DriClime Windshirt for less than half the price (about $45 I think). I’m thinking of trying that.
Dunno about the MEC Flashpoint, but I *really* like my DriClime Windshirt. It’s what I wear all the time unless it’s too hot. Check out Killerdeals.com, I got mine there for $75. Mark — mark "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." – Charles Darwin
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I got last years model from emsonline for $99. I love this shirt, I wear it alone or over my capilene. It packs down to the size of a softball. tmc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Also look at the Marmot Driclime windshirt, light, mostly windproof, and a small fleece inner. … tmc Is the Marmot DriClime Windshirt really everything it’s made out to be? I looked at it but it doesn’t seem worth the $120 price. In the MEC catalog they noticed that they have the "MEC Flashpoint 2" which seems to essentially be a clone of the DriClime Windshirt for less than half the price (about $45 I think). I’m thinking of trying that.
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I got a similar product with the EMS brand and it has turned out to be one of my favorite pieces of outdoor clothing. In some ways it is better than the Marmot product because it has full pit zips. — Bob
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Also look at the Marmot Driclime windshirt, light, mostly windproof, and a small fleece inner. … tmc Is the Marmot DriClime Windshirt really everything it’s made out to be? I looked at it but it doesn’t seem worth the $120 price. In the MEC catalog they noticed that they have the "MEC Flashpoint 2" which seems to essentially be a clone of the DriClime Windshirt for less than half the price (about $45 I think). I’m thinking of trying that.
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I find that what works best for me is whatever I can find on sale from places like sierratradingpost.com. Seriously, most of the stuff I’ve gotten lately is polyester-based and I don’t notice too much difference.
I agree. There is very little difference in my Outlast (polyester), PolarMax (polyester) or MTS (polyester.) The key here seems to be polyester… Ruger9
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. My goal is to lighten up (not ultra light, but lighter than the 50 lbs I’ve hauled in the past)
Ouch! , stay warm and dry, and to pack a smaller load. Already replaced include my tent, sleeping bag, and stove. Now I’m looking at my layering clothing which definitely needs to be replaced (cotton long johns, sweatshirts, etc.). What material is best for long underwear? Keeping in mind that it should be warm when wet. The choices I see out there are polypropylene, capilene, duofold, and silk.
Cotton, uh, no. Try capilene for your upper and lower base layer, you won’t be disssapointed. As for the outer layers, I’ve already replaced my sweatshirts with fleece and my bluejeans with nylon or cotton blends.
I hope your not serious about "blue jeans". Try marmot side zip pants for cool weather or warmer weather try Rail Riders weather or advneture pants (the best IMHO). Also look at the Marmot Driclime windshirt, light, mostly windproof, and a small fleece inner. Thanks, John
Good luck John, tmc
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As for the outer layers, I’ve already replaced my sweatshirts with fleece and my bluejeans with nylon or cotton blends. I hope your not serious about "blue jeans".
Actually, yes. :) At the time, jeans worked and were already owned. Like I said, it’s time to replace some equipment. Also, at the time, finding clothes that would come close to fitting a 6′5" 150 lb. frame was more than a challenge. Never mind boots that should fit 13A feet. I could find jeans that fit reasonably well, but not "activewear". But times change, and now I’m 6′5" at 200 lbs. and clothes are a little easier to come by even if they’re not long enough. And my feet have also grown, now I’m a 14A. Equipment still in use includes a North Face Back Magic II (external frame, circa 1981) and an original Term-A-Rest with a metal valve (circa 1982). Recently retired include a North Face Westwind tent (still good, but getting a little cramped) and a North Face Rabbit’s Foot (I think) sleeping bag. Now shelter is provided by a Dana Designs Big Joe (plenty of room for me and the dog, yes I’m carrying some extra weight – this is my luxury item), and warmth is provided by a North Face Cat’s Meow (which also frees up some room in the pack). Also on the "to be retired" list this year is the *old* Gaz stove (circa 1973). Next year I may consider a new pack. John
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What material is best for long underwear? Keeping in mind that it should be warm when wet. The choices I see out there are polypropylene, capilene, duofold, and silk.
As far as performance goes, I don’t notice any difference. I have some cheap polypro, and some nice capeline. They both wick equally well.. I notice a difference in the comfort, and I really notice the difference in the smell. The cheap stuff I have tends to get a nice ripe smell after a few days. Works great on cross-borer hikes to speed up going through customs on the way back. They open the trunk, get one wiff, then close it right away. -Pete — — LITTLE KNOWN FACT: Did you know that 90% of North Americans cannot taste the difference between fried dog and fried cat?
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As I continue to go through my backpacking equipment, some of which was purchased by habits formed 20 years ago, I’m now looking at some of the clothing I normally take with me. My goal is to lighten up (not ultra light, but lighter than the 50 lbs I’ve hauled in the past), stay warm and dry, and to pack a smaller load. Already replaced include my tent, sleeping bag, and stove. Now I’m looking at my layering clothing which definitely needs to be replaced (cotton long johns, sweatshirts, etc.). What material is best for long underwear? Keeping in mind that it should be warm when wet. The choices I see out there are polypropylene, capilene, duofold, and silk.
I find that what works best for me is whatever I can find on sale from places like sierratradingpost.com. Seriously, most of the stuff I’ve gotten lately is polyester-based and I don’t notice too much difference. I haven’t seen polypro thermals for a while, I think polyster is more durable. I’d avoid silk because I don’t know how well it would work as a wicking material when you’re really active, but then I don’t have much experience with it. A lot of people favor the Pattagucci capilene, but aside from possibly being more durable, does it really perform noticeably better? BTW, anyone out there using a primloft or polarguard 3d jacket in place of midweight or heavy fleece? I have my eye on the MEC Northern Lites primaloft sweater to use in place of a fleece jacket. www.mec.ca It’s about $70 or so in U.S. dollars. As for the outer layers, I’ve already replaced my sweatshirts with fleece and my bluejeans with nylon or cotton blends.
A cotton blend is much better than just plain cotton, but I’d avoid cotton entirely in anything you expect to wear to stay warm (I still bring a cotton T-shirt & shorts sometimes, but I’ve started using synthetic for even those). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks, John
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What material is best for long underwear? Keeping in mind that it should be warm when wet. The choices I see out there are polypropylene, capilene, duofold, and silk.
I use generic polypropylene primarily because underwear made from it are generally cheapest. Of course sometimes you get what you pay for, so I buy house brands from reputable stores instead of going for the really cheap stuff. I don’t do much winter hiking in the snow so the heaviest I have ever bought is the medium weight underwear. The stuff I bought has worked well for me so I see no reason to pay more for anything else. Of the other materials I have tried, capilene did not seem to be any different. Silk felt better and is worth considering if you find the other materials "scratchy". I have never tried duofold. Danny
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As I continue to go through my backpacking equipment, some of which was purchased by habits formed 20 years ago, I’m now looking at some of the clothing I normally take with me. My goal is to lighten up (not ultra light, but lighter than the 50 lbs I’ve hauled in the past), stay warm and dry, and to pack a smaller load. Already replaced include my tent, sleeping bag, and stove. Now I’m looking at my layering clothing which definitely needs to be replaced (cotton long johns, sweatshirts, etc.). What material is best for long underwear? Keeping in mind that it should be warm when wet. The choices I see out there are polypropylene, capilene, duofold, and silk. As for the outer layers, I’ve already replaced my sweatshirts with fleece and my bluejeans with nylon or cotton blends. Thanks, John
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Most people think capilene is the best. It is relatively expensive. I also like The North Face’s underwear but it is much less popular. It is also expensive. Bob
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As I continue to go through my backpacking equipment, some of which was purchased by habits formed 20 years ago, I’m now looking at some of the clothing I normally take with me. My goal is to lighten up (not ultra light, but lighter than the 50 lbs I’ve hauled in the past), stay warm and dry, and to pack a smaller load. Already replaced include my tent, sleeping bag, and stove. Now I’m looking at my layering clothing which definitely needs to be replaced (cotton long johns, sweatshirts, etc.). What material is best for long underwear? Keeping in mind that it should be warm when wet. The choices I see out there are polypropylene, capilene, duofold, and silk. As for the outer layers, I’ve already replaced my sweatshirts with fleece and my bluejeans with nylon or cotton blends. Thanks, John
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Johnny, I use Capilene long underwear in winter. I forgo carrying long underwear for the other seasons in favor of carrying either a Polartec microfleece (approx. 100 wt.) sweater or a jacket, depending on the worst I expect to survive. In winter, I like the lesser warmth of Capilene for moving in foul conditions. I don’t need thermal gear in the other 3 seasons while active. The warmth to weight ratio of microfleece is much better than Capilene. Thus, its a good choice for inactive periods. If my trunk is warm, my legs don’t get cold unless its really very nasty out–then I can jump in my bag or exercise. Thus, I only carry a thermal top for the other 3 seasons. If you want to take a lesson from one ultralight school, just wear the equivalent of: REI MTS briefs and long sleeve shirt, Golite Trunk windproof shell pants, and whatever footwear you choose to support the weight you carry. Carry a Golite Bark jacket, fleece mitts, and fleece hat. Optionally add bug mitts, bug booties, and sun mitts ala Ray Jardin as described in "Beyond Backpacking." The wicking base layer with windproof top layer permits comfort even in driving rain while active. It works better for 3-season backpacking than Gortex. I even use it in winter, but still carry my Gortex shells for extra warmth. Once you get the clothing down you can rethink the other gear areas again. I still have all my 15+ year old toys, I just don’t use them much anymore, except in winter. I too have hauled over 50 lbs before–and still can. After carrying less than 10 pounds on a few trips, I can’t imagine taking the heavier load except at great need. Regards, doc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As I continue to go through my backpacking equipment, some of which was purchased by habits formed 20 years ago, I’m now looking at some of the clothing I normally take with me. My goal is to lighten up (not ultra light, but lighter than the 50 lbs I’ve hauled in the past), stay warm and dry, and to pack a smaller load. Already replaced include my tent, sleeping bag, and stove. Now I’m looking at my layering clothing which definitely needs to be replaced (cotton long johns, sweatshirts, etc.). What material is best for long underwear? Keeping in mind that it should be warm when wet. The choices I see out there are polypropylene, capilene, duofold, and silk. As for the outer layers, I’ve already replaced my sweatshirts with fleece and my bluejeans with nylon or cotton blends. Thanks, John
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Question:
> What kind of pillow? I like soft, down-filled, pillows that you can > really sink into, it might work better if I used a firmer foam pillow.
i have an old style pillow (in fact it’s probably 20 or more years old) that is filled with small foam pieces…so it’s soft and kind of mouldable
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> mask, but Joe’s site indicates that it >comes in two versions, one with the vent on the elbow and one with it >somewhere on the mask. Which version do you have?
My vent is at the elbo
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carmelita52b…@aol.com (Carmelita52bc00) wrote: >> mask, but Joe’s site indicates that it >>comes in two versions, one with the vent on the elbow and one with it >>somewhere on the mask. Which version do you have? >My vent is at the elbo
Does the vent move when the hose does? I’m still trying to figure out why it seems to be hitting you from various directions. Tom
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Carmelita52bc00 <carmelita52b…@aol.com> wrote: > Hi Eric, I think it’s when I cover my head with blankets. Then the air has > no where to go but to the side of my face. I cover my head because my > house gets to cold and then I get that condisation in mask. We don’t have > central heating and we are running out of wood for heat.( happens at end > of winter season) So we limit wood burning. > Carmen
Carmen, Hit the nearest fabric store and get some acrylic fleece and sew a tube the length of the hose and a loose fit. Secure the fabric with some velcro at each end. sew a strip of hook to loop so that the loop side is out and hook side in. Tack a piece of cord to one end of the fabric tube and weight the other end and drop through the hose and use it to pull the tube through to turn it right side out. Ross Bernheim
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> I’ve never had one blow on the side of my cheek! >How do you manage that???
Hi Eric, I think it’s when I cover my head with blankets. Then the air has no where to go but to the side of my face. I cover my head because my house gets to cold and then I get that condisation in mask. We don’t have central heating and we are running out of wood for heat.( happens at end of winter season) So we limit wood burning. Carmen
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carmelita52b…@aol.com (Carmelita52bc00) wrote: > I think it’s when I cover my head with blankets. Then the air has no where >to go but to the side of my face. I cover my head because my house gets to cold >and then I get that condisation in mask. We don’t have central heating and we >are running out of wood for heat.( happens at end of winter season) So we limit >wood burning.
Do you sew or knit? A "mask cozy", to insulate the mask, might do the trick. Here’s a starting point for ideas.. http://www.comfynose.com/ Tom
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"Tal" <ta…@tpg.com.au> wrote: >> I don’t think any mask will let you bury your face in the pillow, most >> of us just sleep with our heads next to the pillow’s edge so the mask >> overhangs. >I sleep with the side of my face well and truely pressed into the pillow >without problems….. have heard someone else with the F&P aclaim sleeps on >side without having to hang mask over the edge of pillow too, but i can’t >remember who that is.
What kind of pillow? I like soft, down-filled, pillows that you can really sink into, it might work better if I used a firmer foam pillow. Tom
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In article <20020304214204.11763.00001…@mb-cq.aol.com>, carmelita52b…@aol.com says… > But a new question that Lenny didn’t mention. My doc. say’s to > drink at least a quart of water a day. Is there a reason for this that is > related to the mask?
Probably to keep your air passages moist. A quart of water is a little low anyway. Endocrinologists will tell you that people should endeavour to drink between 2 to 3 litres of water a day (0.5 to 0.8 US gallons) for health, and ensure that you drink at least a glass of water before going to bed. A good way of ensuring you’re well hydrated is to carry a 500mL or 1 Litre plastic drinking bottle with you everywhere, and keep filling it up. You’ll find that if you’re reading, working on your computer, talking to people, sitting on a train/bus, that you’ll have a tendency to sip from the bottle almost like on reflex, especially if it’s handy. And if you’re worried about having to go to the toilet often, well, that *is* the point of the exercise.
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And the heavier you are the more water you need to drink. I pretty much quit my soda drinking and noticed since I drink more water, I’m actually using the bathroom less. I knew caffinated drinks could dehydrate you but thought Seven_up wouldn’t. Wrong! Mike "ARP1153" <-…@-.-> wrote in message
news:MPG.16eee37b9d2a6e59989733@news-vic… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <20020304214204.11763.00001…@mb-cq.aol.com>, > carmelita52b…@aol.com says… > > But a new question that Lenny didn’t mention. My doc. say’s to > > drink at least a quart of water a day. Is there a reason for this that is > > related to the mask? > Probably to keep your air passages moist. A quart of water is a little > low anyway. Endocrinologists will tell you that people should endeavour > to drink between 2 to 3 litres of water a day (0.5 to 0.8 US gallons) for > health, and ensure that you drink at least a glass of water before going > to bed. > A good way of ensuring you’re well hydrated is to carry a 500mL or 1 > Litre plastic drinking bottle with you everywhere, and keep filling it > up. You’ll find that if you’re reading, working on your computer, > talking to people, sitting on a train/bus, that you’ll have a tendency to > sip from the bottle almost like on reflex, especially if it’s handy. And > if you’re worried about having to go to the toilet often, well, that *is* > the point of the exercise.
Response:
many masks and I’ve never had one blow on the side of my cheek! How do you manage that??? A quart of water a day is *way* low, CPAP or not. WAY WAY low. Too little water can cause kidney damage and a lot of other nasty problems. And yes, you probably need more on CPAP since there is a drying effect on the nasal tissues/throat/etc even with a heated humidifier. If you do not have a humidifier and live somewhere less hot and humid than Florida, the need for more hydration as a result of CPAP is even more. On 05 Mar 2002 02:42:04 GMT, carmelita52b…@aol.com (Carmelita52bc00) wrote: >>6. Air blowing anywhere on my body,causes me to itch and is very >>>irritating. >Tom, > The air I am experiencing isn’t from leaks , it’s from the air shooting from >that hole that let’s the air out. No matter where my hose is, that air is >either blowing up my forhead down my chin or on one side of mycheck or the >other. That’s whats irritating me. > The other problems I think I have covered. I’m doing good. Slept 10 hours >last night. But a new question that Lenny didn’t mention. My doc. say’s to >drink at least a quart of water a day. Is there a reason for this that is >related to the mask? > Carmen
regards, eric pearson db2e…@nospammindspring.com
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You got it (well, as soon as I get it). I bought the memory foam one so I’m hoping it won’t be hot. Also, have memory foam mattress and pillows and are generally pleased. Buckwheat rules We never go on a flight without our bucky pillows. Mike "eric pearson" <db2e…@nospam.mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:nlc88u0ico89f942q0l327vrlid4qan76k@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> WOW!!! > Please post results. > This may beat the odd nest I make with my > buckwheat hull pillows!. > regards, > eric pearson > db2e…@nospammindspring.com > On Mon, 4 Mar 2002 20:00:04 -0500, "Lori&Mike" > <mpow…@the-beachnospam.net> wrote: > >I haven’t received it yet (ordered a few days ago) but supposedly this > >product will let you sleep facing down. Looks weird but I was trying to > >think how to sleep like this for a few months. I’m going to critique it > >after trying it on (if anyone seems interested). > >http://www.pillowrest.com/pillowrest/ > >"snip" > >> <<7. I sleep most comfortably on my stomach or on my side, somewhat > >> toward my stomach with my face in the pillow but the headgear doesn’t > >> let me sleep that way.>> > >> I get along fine on my side, but I don’t think you will be able to sleep > >with > >> your face completely in the pillow …
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carmelita52b…@aol.com (Carmelita52bc00) wrote: > The air I am experiencing isn’t from leaks , it’s from the air shooting from >that hole that let’s the air out. No matter where my hose is, that air is >either blowing up my forhead down my chin or on one side of mycheck or the >other. That’s whats irritating me.
I don’t know much about your mask, but Joe’s site indicates that it comes in two versions, one with the vent on the elbow and one with it somewhere on the mask. Which version do you have? http://www.cpapman.com/respiron.html#anchor35130 > The other problems I think I have covered. I’m doing good. Slept 10 hours >last night. But a new question that Lenny didn’t mention. My doc. say’s to >drink at least a quart of water a day. Is there a reason for this that is >related to the mask?
I wouldn’t think so, it just sounds like good general advice. Tom
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I am a new user of the CPAP machine and headgear. I was wondering if others have had the following similiar problems and if so how did you fix them. 1. Tightness over ears 2. Pressure around my eyebrows 3. Air escaped my mounth and I wake up with dry mouth 4. Elastic becomes too tight after an hour when it was comfortabel before. 5. Movement during sleep causes the headgear to not stay in place. 6. Air blowing anywhere on my body,causes me to itch and is very irritating. 7. I sleep most comfortably on my stomach or on my side, somewhat toward my stomach with my face in the pillow but the headgear doesn’t let me sleep that way. If anyone has found a way to fix any of these problems or is this the only type of headgear avaliable today? What are your favorite type and style of headgear? Please post any comments on here so eveyone can see the fixes. Thank you. Lenny
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lennynel…@hotmail.com (Bar300) wrote: >I am a new user of the CPAP machine and headgear. I was wondering if >others have had the following similiar problems and if so how did you >fix them.
Which mask? There’s a wide range, and too few people get a good one to start with. 
>3. Air escaped my mounth and I wake up with dry mouth
Try to learn to sleep with your tongue touching the roof of your mouth, it’s worked for many of us and it soon becomes automatic. >5. Movement during sleep causes the headgear to not stay in place.
Suspending your hoses might help, it keeps the hose from pulling on your mask. I use a hook in the ceiling with a couple of rubber bands and some string, it lets the hoses float and keeps them out of the way no matter how I move. >6. Air blowing anywhere on my body,causes me to itch and is very >irritating.
Leaks are the single biggest problem for new users, a better mask is usually the cure. >7. I sleep most comfortably on my stomach or on my side, somewhat >toward my stomach with my face in the pillow but the headgear doesn’t >let me sleep that way.
I don’t think any mask will let you bury your face in the pillow, most of us just sleep with our heads next to the pillow’s edge so the mask overhangs. >If anyone has found a way to fix any of these problems or is this the >only type of headgear avaliable today? What are your favorite type and >style of headgear?
There are many different masks available, take a look around www.cpapman.com . I use the nasal pillows version of the Breeze and think it’s wonderful, others here like the ResMed Ultra Mirage and the F&P Aclaim. http://www.mallinckrodt.com/respiratory/productcatalog/product.asp?id… http://www.resmed.com/row/1006377916918.html http://www.fphcare.com/osa/aclaimfaq.asp?show= Tom
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> >7. I sleep most comfortably on my stomach or on my side, somewhat > >toward my stomach with my face in the pillow but the headgear doesn’t > >let me sleep that way. > I don’t think any mask will let you bury your face in the pillow, most > of us just sleep with our heads next to the pillow’s edge so the mask > overhangs.
I sleep with the side of my face well and truely pressed into the pillow without problems….. have heard someone else with the F&P aclaim sleeps on side without having to hang mask over the edge of pillow too, but i can’t remember who that is. Beth in Australia
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Bar300 wrote: > I am a new user of the CPAP machine and headgear. I was wondering if > others have had the following similiar problems and if so how did you > fix them. > 1. Tightness over ears
Mask too tight. Loosen until it clearly will not seal. Laying down, slightly & slowly tighten until it doesn’t leak. > 2. Pressure around my eyebrows
Same as for 1. > 3. Air escaped my mounth and I wake up with dry mouth
Consider a full face mask, as I had to do. It is less than an inch longer and a little wider than a regular nasal mask. Then you won’t ever have to worry about breathing through your mouth. > 4. Elastic becomes too tight after an hour when it was comfortabel > before.
Same as for 1. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> 5. Movement during sleep causes the headgear to not stay in place. > 6. Air blowing anywhere on my body,causes me to itch and is very > irritating. > 7. I sleep most comfortably on my stomach or on my side, somewhat > toward my stomach with my face in the pillow but the headgear doesn’t > let me sleep that way. > If anyone has found a way to fix any of these problems or is this the > only type of headgear avaliable today? What are your favorite type and > style of headgear? > Please post any comments on here so eveyone can see the fixes. > Thank you. > Lenny
Response:
<< 1. Tightness over ears>> The mask does not have to be too tight. It does not need to "suck" onto your face. And the straps don’t have to cross the ears. It takes a while, fiddling with the straps, to get them comfortable. <<2. Pressure around my eyebrows>> Same as above. Fiddle with it a little bit. <<3. Air escaped my mounth and I wake up with dry mouth>> As the previous poster said, learning to sleep with your tongue touching the roof of your mouth and the front teeth helps with this. If not, you can get a chin strap that will help teach you to keep your mouth closed. <<4. Elastic becomes too tight after an hour when it was comfortabel before.>> Well, I don’t know about that one. Same as above … fiddle with it. <<5. Movement during sleep causes the headgear to not stay in place.>> Some people use hair pins to help. I still wake up several times during the night and give the mask a little tug and go right back to sleep. <<6. Air blowing anywhere on my body,causes me to itch and is very irritating.>> Different masks have differently placed exhausts. I have started using the Ultra Mirage and it has a baffle over the exhaust port that spreads the air out and directs it away from you. <<7. I sleep most comfortably on my stomach or on my side, somewhat toward my stomach with my face in the pillow but the headgear doesn’t let me sleep that way.>> I get along fine on my side, but I don’t think you will be able to sleep with your face completely in the pillow … << is this the only type of headgear avaliable today? What are your favorite type and style of headgear? >> There are a zillion types and styles of masks and headgear. I use the Ultra Mirage with the standard strap headgear and am quite happy. Others use the Breeze nasal pillows with the over the head plastic gear and love it. You can see a lot of different arrangements at http://cpapman.com Stick with it, and just work on getting comfortable. It will make a major difference in your life! Mike
Response:
I haven’t received it yet (ordered a few days ago) but supposedly this product will let you sleep facing down. Looks weird but I was trying to think how to sleep like this for a few months. I’m going to critique it after trying it on (if anyone seems interested). http://www.pillowrest.com/pillowrest/ "snip" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> <<7. I sleep most comfortably on my stomach or on my side, somewhat > toward my stomach with my face in the pillow but the headgear doesn’t > let me sleep that way.>> > I get along fine on my side, but I don’t think you will be able to sleep with > your face completely in the pillow …
Response:
>6. Air blowing anywhere on my body,causes me to itch and is very >>irritating.
Tom, The air I am experiencing isn’t from leaks , it’s from the air shooting from that hole that let’s the air out. No matter where my hose is, that air is either blowing up my forhead down my chin or on one side of mycheck or the other. That’s whats irritating me. The other problems I think I have covered. I’m doing good. Slept 10 hours last night. But a new question that Lenny didn’t mention. My doc. say’s to drink at least a quart of water a day. Is there a reason for this that is related to the mask? Carmen
Response:
On 4 Mar 2002 10:42:18 -0800, lennynel…@hotmail.com (Bar300) wrote: >I am a new user of the CPAP machine and headgear. I was wondering if >others have had the following similiar problems and if so how did you >fix them. >1. Tightness over ears
.. most newbies tighten things too much >2. Pressure around my eyebrows
.. most newbies tighten things too much >3. Air escaped my mounth and I wake up with dry mouth
- maybe you need a good chinstrap? The Veronique by My True Image is one of the best >4. Elastic becomes too tight after an hour when it was comfortabel >before.
.. most newbies tighten things too much >5. Movement during sleep causes the headgear to not stay in place.
.. improper adjustment? Try nasal pillows (especially Breeze or Conjo custom headgear? >6. Air blowing anywhere on my body,causes me to itch and is very >irritating.
.. where is this air coming from? please explain! >7. I sleep most comfortably on my stomach or on my side, somewhat >toward my stomach with my face in the pillow but the headgear doesn’t >let me sleep that way.
…nasal pillows (especially Breeze or Conjo custom headgear) can help with that. >If anyone has found a way to fix any of these problems or is this the >only type of headgear avaliable today? What are your favorite type and >style of headgear?
…nasal pillows (especially Breeze or Conjo custom headgear) can help with tha >Please post any comments on here so eveyone can see the fixes. >Thank you. >Lenny
regards, eric pearson db2e…@nospammindspring.com
Response:
WOW!!! Please post results. This may beat the odd nest I make with my buckwheat hull pillows!. regards, eric pearson db2e…@nospammindspring.com On Mon, 4 Mar 2002 20:00:04 -0500, "Lori&Mike" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<mpow…@the-beachnospam.net> wrote: >I haven’t received it yet (ordered a few days ago) but supposedly this >product will let you sleep facing down. Looks weird but I was trying to >think how to sleep like this for a few months. I’m going to critique it >after trying it on (if anyone seems interested). >http://www.pillowrest.com/pillowrest/ >"snip" >> <<7. I sleep most comfortably on my stomach or on my side, somewhat >> toward my stomach with my face in the pillow but the headgear doesn’t >> let me sleep that way.>> >> I get along fine on my side, but I don’t think you will be able to sleep >with >> your face completely in the pillow …
Response:
Question:
Peter, Are you side stepping to the left of me? :) Don’t forget about goose down comforters and pillows. :0 I do indeed love those feathers, they keep me warm. my pack weight down, and they feel damn good. This is purely capitalism. ;) Keep the world turning honey bun. tmc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll stick with a bag that I know will perform no matter what the conditions – Wiggys! Does it give you whiter teeth and fresh breath too? . It keeps me warm and dry! Aren’t you at all concerned at all about the Gooseicide that your lust for down bags has wrought on our feathered friends? How many geese have been sent to the gas ovens so that you can sleep on their down? I guess that makes you a Goose-Nazi.
Response:
What kind of abuse are you talking about? I love the warm feel and light weight of down. No synthetics for me.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One of my friends went camping in 40 degree weather in a Wiggys Peter, you can lay off the speil for the cheap synthetic bags from your right-wing loony friend. That Marmot Osprey is probably good for another 20 years. It’s a roomy semi-rectangular that had a detachable hood and 2-person convertor available. If I were to chose one bag for everything, that would be it. Marmot doesn’t make that model anymore but Feathered Friends has the Penguin. You cannot beat a good synthetic bag for keep you warm and dry in extreme conditions. I have owned my share of expensive down bags in the past and I would never use one again. There is nothing cheap about Wiggys bags. As for his pragmatic view of life, sorry comrade, we’re not all socialists. His bags are used by various branches of the US Military and the United States Air Force chose his bag to include in the survival kids of pilots who fly in extremely cold climates. I have used Wiggys bags for some time and I have never seen any bag that could stand up to the abuse that his bag can tolerate. They are warm, durable bags that can be washed and dried in your household washer and dryer – try that with most sleeping bags and all you will have is a $600 pile of feathers. Down ices up very easily. A week on the trial and a down bag can be little more than ice crystals and matted feathers. Thanks, but no thanks. I’ll stick with a bag that I know will perform no matter what the conditions – Wiggys!
Response:
If you have been able to make that rig work on multi-day trips in NH winter weather, tmc, you’re a better man (or woman?) than I, and I salute you. As for me, over the past few years I’ve spent perhaps 40-50 nights out in below-zero weather and I don’t think it would work for me. — Bob
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since you will be gone , I will take this opportunity to disagree. :) In my experience, Down is the way to go (no pun intended). You can always get a down bag that is pertex or dryloft or even microfiber on the outer, to resists the condensation. Better yet get a tent/shelter that breathes, and match the temp range with your bag and you won’t have a problem with down. BTW, dynthetic is to HEAVY not too mention bulky. For an ultralighter it is impossible. If I were going to NH, I would bring my WM Apache super dryloft rated at 15 (conservatively), sleep on top of tyvek, with my Sil Shleter (bottom less silnylon) with zero problems. Let us know how it goes. tmc My Ultima Thule was very warm. Actually too warm for most of the camping that I do. Did you wash the bag when you noticed it was losing loft? I never had such problems but right after washing and drying the bag it always fluffed back to normal.
Response:
Yehaw! I almost thought you took a hit in the head. :) tmc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter, Are you side stepping to the left of me? :) Don’t forget about goose down comforters and pillows. :0 I do indeed love those feathers, they keep me warm. my pack weight down, and they feel damn good. This is purely capitalism. ;) Keep the world turning honey bun. In response to the worldwide conspiracy to exterminate geese for the purpose of taking down to make sleeping bags, comforters, and pillows I have formed a non-profit corporation to protect these helpless birds from the holocaust that has befallen them with the expansion of hiking and camping activities, not to mention affluent capitalists and socialists who also use goose down in articles in their homes. My new organization – PETG – People for the Ethical Treatment of Geese will not rest until all geese can go to sleep at night knowing that they will not be part of a sleeping bag the next mornings. Avian cleansing must cease! The holocaust of feathers must stop or PETG will resort to whatever activities we deem necessary to protect our feathered friends. As an environmentalist non-profit organization, we need your donations. We accept: VISA, AMEX, Diners Club, Discover Card, Master Card, cash, gold, marketable recreation pharmaceuticals, SUV’s, and just about anything else of any value. I want to assure you that only 99% of our donations go to overhead, salaries, bonuses, gold parachutes, Lear Jet Rentals, vacations, nudie bars, and really cute secretaries. 100% of the remaining funds goes directly to soliciting your donations. As you can see, PETG’s balance sheet is no different from the Sierra Club or any of the other mainstream environmental non-profits. Send us a lot of money and we won’t throw red paint on your down sleeping bag. I’ll stick with a bag that I know will perform no matter what the conditions – Wiggys! Does it give you whiter teeth and fresh breath too? . It keeps me warm and dry! Aren’t you at all concerned at all about the Gooseicide that your lust for down bags has wrought on our feathered friends? How many geese have been sent to the gas ovens so that you can sleep on their down? I guess that makes you a Goose-Nazi.
Response:
That said, those who say "only down" or "only synthetic" are both wrong because some conditions favor one and some the other. Sorry I won’t be around to respond. I’ll be in NH a few days enjoying the white world. I’ll be taking a synthetic, rated 0degF.
Since you will be gone , I will take this opportunity to disagree. :) In my experience, Down is the way to go (no pun intended). You can always get a down bag that is pertex or dryloft or even microfiber on the outer, to resists the condensation. Better yet get a tent/shelter that breathes, and match the temp range with your bag and you won’t have a problem with down. BTW, dynthetic is to HEAVY not too mention bulky. For an ultralighter it is impossible. If I were going to NH, I would bring my WM Apache super dryloft rated at 15 (conservatively), sleep on top of tyvek, with my Sil Shleter (bottom less silnylon) with zero problems. Let us know how it goes. tmc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My Ultima Thule was very warm. Actually too warm for most of the camping that I do. Did you wash the bag when you noticed it was losing loft? I never had such problems but right after washing and drying the bag it always fluffed back to normal.
Response:
I used the bag on only 8-10 trips (mostly 1-2 nighters, with a couple of 4-5) and it was not dirty, not by a longshot. I find it interesting that you say you never had such problems but note in the same sentence that after a washing it "fluffed back to normal," which seems to indicate that you did in fact notice some loss of loft. Personally, I refuse to wash a clean bag, and inasmuch as I live in an apartment in NYC and don’t have ready access to a big washing machine it is an expensive pain that I won’t endure. My present sleeping bag count is 5 — 2 down and 3 synthetic — for various conditions. One of the down bags I got in 1985 (TNF Ibex) and it has been washed exactly once. The other bag was purchased in 1992 or 1993 and it has also been washed once. Synthetics don’t hold their loft, so I factor that in when buying a synthetic bag. I did that with the Ultima Thule as well, so what did it in for me was the draft collar issue. That said, those who say "only down" or "only synthetic" are both wrong because some conditions favor one and some the other. Sorry I won’t be around to respond. I’ll be in NH a few days enjoying the white world. I’ll be taking a synthetic, rated 0degF.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My Ultima Thule was very warm. Actually too warm for most of the camping that I do. Did you wash the bag when you noticed it was losing loft? I never had such problems but right after washing and drying the bag it always fluffed back to normal.
Response:
Several years ago I used an Ultima Thule for one season, in temperatures down to its rated -20degF and found it barely adequate. I can’t quantify it, but mine definitely lost significant loft over a relatively short period of time. No doubt it is a rugged bag, but also heavy and difficult to compress. But my biggest complaint is the lack of a draft collar, which I feel is necessary on any bag rated below +20degF. Fortunately, I got a prompt refund and didn’t experience the ordeals that some have reported.
My Ultima Thule was very warm. Actually too warm for most of the camping that I do. Did you wash the bag when you noticed it was losing loft? I never had such problems but right after washing and drying the bag it always fluffed back to normal.
Response:
For a bag, consider a synthetic. For that temperature range you can get a 3-lb synthetic bag, which is far better than down for humid climates. Specifically, check out Integral Designs ‘Renaissance’, http://www.integraldesigns.com/srer.htm and look at the sizing options. Tent: Stephenson Warmlite 2RS, which weighs 3 lbs and has gobs of room, full side windows for ventilation in hot weather while keeping out the bugs http://www.warmlite.com/tents.htm Without the side windows is 2.75 lbs, but for 3 seasons the side windows are a must. Neither is inexpensive, but you’ll have a versatile tent/bag combo weighing 6 lbs, and you can rock, roll, toss and turn to your heart’s content. — Bob
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes. I should have specified the temp range. I used to use this setup in Fall/Winter in KY/TN which means 20-50 degrees F. The bag has lost some of its loft so it does great in this range. In Summer, I just lie on my pad and throw the bag over me, opened up. I would have multiple bags but I can’t find a bag that fits me. I have 42" shoulders and I toss around in my sleep like I’m on fire. Normal width bags just end up feeling like I’m sleeping with a boa constrictor. I digress…the 10-degree bag is my only one because I can’t find another. I do tend to sleep warm (bag zipper open with one leg out, even in Winter). Tentwise, I have a Megamid and a TNF Aerohead. The megamid is palacial but out of the question for Ontario in Spring (bugs). The Aerohead is rock solid but a PITA to pitch. The bivy was the lightweight solution for me but it’s just too damp and confining for me. If I could cure the dampness issue, I might keep it but I think maybe the best solution is to sell the bivy and get a solo 3-season tent. — Greg Smith
Response:
One of my friends went camping in 40 degree weather in a Wiggys
Peter, you can lay off the speil for the cheap synthetic bags from your right-wing loony friend. That Marmot Osprey is probably good for another 20 years. It’s a roomy semi-rectangular that had a detachable hood and 2-person convertor available. If I were to chose one bag for everything, that would be it. Marmot doesn’t make that model anymore but Feathered Friends has the Penguin.
Response:
If your bag is a boa snake, look at the wide down bags from www.westernmountaineering.com You will be glad that you did, they have regular and extra wide.
My current bag is okay but others I have owned (including a Marmot Grouse and TNF Cat’s Meow) were just too tight in the shoulders. I’ll check out that site though. In 20-50 Degree weather I would definately lose the goretex bivy and tent if your sleeper already has goretex. Go with a 8 x 10 silnylon tarp if you solo, this will shed sustained rain at level ground. Extra breathability as well with the tarp.
I have slept open-air with this bag and it was the best night sleep I ever had, especially since it was one of those mornings when it’s windy, the barometer is dropping so the air is already dry in the advance of an incoming storm, and the temps were around 45F. Gore-Tex/down combo is incredible in those conditions. The conditions I anticipate (and hate) are rainy/buggy. I am going to Killarney, ON in May and the bugs are beginning to come out a that time. Believe me, if not for bugs, my Marmot bag and my Megamid is an awesome duo. If I could figure out an easy way to add netting to my Megamid, I’d be set. About the last 5 weeks I have been using the integral designs sil-shelter, sleeps 2, more like 1.5 but a nice shelter for under 1 lb. My border collie and I seem to like it quite well (yeah I solo with a dog).
You’re not soloing if you bring a dog. They are better company than many people though and better listeners too. Good luck
Thanks. — Greg Smith
Response:
One of my friends went camping in 40 degree weather in a Wiggys Peter, you can lay off the speil for the cheap synthetic bags from your right-wing loony friend. That Marmot Osprey is probably good for another 20 years. It’s a roomy semi-rectangular that had a detachable hood and 2-person convertor available. If I were to chose one bag for everything, that would be it. Marmot doesn’t make that model anymore but Feathered Friends has the Penguin.
You cannot beat a good synthetic bag for keep you warm and dry in extreme conditions. I have owned my share of expensive down bags in the past and I would never use one again. There is nothing cheap about Wiggys bags. As for his pragmatic view of life, sorry comrade, we’re not all socialists. His bags are used by various branches of the US Military and the United States Air Force chose his bag to include in the survival kids of pilots who fly in extremely cold climates. I have used Wiggys bags for some time and I have never seen any bag that could stand up to the abuse that his bag can tolerate. They are warm, durable bags that can be washed and dried in your household washer and dryer – try that with most sleeping bags and all you will have is a $600 pile of feathers. Down ices up very easily. A week on the trial and a down bag can be little more than ice crystals and matted feathers. Thanks, but no thanks. I’ll stick with a bag that I know will perform no matter what the conditions – Wiggys!
Response:
Peter, Are you side stepping to the left of me? :) Don’t forget about goose down comforters and pillows. :0 I do indeed love those feathers, they keep me warm. my pack weight down, and they feel damn good. This is purely capitalism. ;) Keep the world turning honey bun.
In response to the worldwide conspiracy to exterminate geese for the purpose of taking down to make sleeping bags, comforters, and pillows I have formed a non-profit corporation to protect these helpless birds from the holocaust that has befallen them with the expansion of hiking and camping activities, not to mention affluent capitalists and socialists who also use goose down in articles in their homes. My new organization – PETG – People for the Ethical Treatment of Geese will not rest until all geese can go to sleep at night knowing that they will not be part of a sleeping bag the next mornings. Avian cleansing must cease! The holocaust of feathers must stop or PETG will resort to whatever activities we deem necessary to protect our feathered friends. As an environmentalist non-profit organization, we need your donations. We accept: VISA, AMEX, Diners Club, Discover Card, Master Card, cash, gold, marketable recreation pharmaceuticals, SUV’s, and just about anything else of any value. I want to assure you that only 99% of our donations go to overhead, salaries, bonuses, gold parachutes, Lear Jet Rentals, vacations, nudie bars, and really cute secretaries. 100% of the remaining funds goes directly to soliciting your donations. As you can see, PETG’s balance sheet is no different from the Sierra Club or any of the other mainstream environmental non-profits. Send us a lot of money and we won’t throw red paint on your down sleeping bag. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll stick with a bag that I know will perform no matter what the conditions – Wiggys! Does it give you whiter teeth and fresh breath too? . It keeps me warm and dry! Aren’t you at all concerned at all about the Gooseicide that your lust for down bags has wrought on our feathered friends? How many geese have been sent to the gas ovens so that you can sleep on their down? I guess that makes you a Goose-Nazi.
Response:
If your bag is a boa snake, look at the wide down bags from www.westernmountaineering.com You will be glad that you did, they have regular and extra wide. In 20-50 Degree weather I would definately lose the goretex bivy and tent if your sleeper already has goretex. Go with a 8 x 10 silnylon tarp if you solo, this will shed sustained rain at level ground. Extra breathability as well with the tarp. About the last 5 weeks I have been using the integral designs sil-shelter, sleeps 2, more like 1.5 but a nice shelter for under 1 lb. My border collie and I seem to like it quite well (yeah I solo with a dog). I like it better than my 8 x10 silnylon tarp. Good luck tmc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greg, it would be helpful if you stated the temperature range over which you get this problem. If the bag is rated for 0 F, then if the weather is actually 0 F and you are still getting that steamy, then maybe it is YOU. Some folks are just warm sleepers. If the bag is rated for 0 F and if the weather is +40 F, then maybe your bag is too warm for that condition. The OR bivy arguably adds 10 degrees of warmth to the naked bag. I think some of us who camp out in a wide range of conditions is forced to have a selection of multiple bags. I use one for -20 F, one for 0 F, one for +20 F, and then I think there are one or two others that are the offspring of the first ones. —Bob Gross— Yes. I should have specified the temp range. I used to use this setup in Fall/Winter in KY/TN which means 20-50 degrees F. The bag has lost some of its loft so it does great in this range. In Summer, I just lie on my pad and throw the bag over me, opened up. I would have multiple bags but I can’t find a bag that fits me. I have 42" shoulders and I toss around in my sleep like I’m on fire. Normal width bags just end up feeling like I’m sleeping with a boa constrictor. I digress…the 10-degree bag is my only one because I can’t find another. I do tend to sleep warm (bag zipper open with one leg out, even in Winter). Tentwise, I have a Megamid and a TNF Aerohead. The megamid is palacial but out of the question for Ontario in Spring (bugs). The Aerohead is rock solid but a PITA to pitch. The bivy was the lightweight solution for me but it’s just too damp and confining for me. If I could cure the dampness issue, I might keep it but I think maybe the best solution is to sell the bivy and get a solo 3-season tent. — Greg Smith
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greg, it would be helpful if you stated the temperature range over which you get this problem. If the bag is rated for 0 F, then if the weather is actually 0 F and you are still getting that steamy, then maybe it is YOU. Some folks are just warm sleepers. If the bag is rated for 0 F and if the weather is +40 F, then maybe your bag is too warm for that condition. The OR bivy arguably adds 10 degrees of warmth to the naked bag. I think some of us who camp out in a wide range of conditions is forced to have a selection of multiple bags. I use one for -20 F, one for 0 F, one for +20 F, and then I think there are one or two others that are the offspring of the first ones. —Bob Gross—
One of my friends went camping in 40 degree weather in a Wiggys Ultima Thule. This is one of the best bags that I ever owned, but it is rated for -20. I think that it could easily keep you warm in much colder temperatures. At zero you can get a little toasty in it if you are well fed and sheltered from the wind. After waking up prespiring, he opened all the flaps on his one man tent too cool off. Doing that helped some, but not enough for him to get really comforable. The next week the bought a Wiggys Ultra light [rated at 20 degrees] and was much happier on his next hike.
Response:
Several years ago I used an Ultima Thule for one season, in temperatures down to its rated -20degF and found it barely adequate. I can’t quantify it, but mine definitely lost significant loft over a relatively short period of time. No doubt it is a rugged bag, but also heavy and difficult to compress. But my biggest complaint is the lack of a draft collar, which I feel is necessary on any bag rated below +20degF. Fortunately, I got a prompt refund and didn’t experience the ordeals that some have reported. — Bob
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ruminated: I’ll stick with a bag that I know will perform no matter what the conditions – Wiggys! Does it give you whiter teeth and fresh breath too? . It keeps me warm and dry! Aren’t you at all concerned at all about the Gooseicide that your lust for down bags has wrought on our feathered friends? How many geese have been sent to the gas ovens so that you can sleep on their down? I guess that makes you a Goose-Nazi.
Response:
I’ll stick with a bag that I know will perform no matter what the conditions – Wiggys! Does it give you whiter teeth and fresh breath too? .
It keeps me warm and dry! Aren’t you at all concerned at all about the Gooseicide that your lust for down bags has wrought on our feathered friends? How many geese have been sent to the gas ovens so that you can sleep on their down? I guess that makes you a Goose-Nazi.
Response:
I’ll stick with a bag that I know will perform no matter what the conditions – Wiggys! Does it give you whiter teeth and fresh breath too? . It keeps me warm and dry! Aren’t you at all concerned at all about the Gooseicide that your lust for down bags has wrought on our feathered friends? How many geese have been sent to the gas ovens so that you can sleep on their down? I guess that makes you a Goose-Nazi.
Does a Goose-Nazi Goose-Step and wear brown shirts? And what is the relationship between Goose-Nazis and cat herders? Is Elvis REALLY dead? (Note, I actually own a SD Hollofill X+n bag, for some number X+n that I don’t recall, great lightweight bag for my desert conditions w/o the hassles of goose feathers, just love reading advertising copy and responding to it . Eric Lee Green GnuPG public key at http://badtux.org/eric/eric.gpg BadTux: Linux Penguin Gone Bad ( http://badtux.org )
Response:
I’ll stick with a bag that I know will perform no matter what the conditions – Wiggys!
Does it give you whiter teeth and fresh breath too? . — Eric Lee Green GnuPG public key at http://badtux.org/eric/eric.gpg BadTux: Linux Penguin Gone Bad ( http://badtux.org )
Response:
but I think maybe the best solution is to sell the bivy and get a solo 3-season tent.
Bingo. Great bag. The problem is the bivy fabric resting on it with no air circulation.
Response:
It sounds like you are just too warm of a guy <g to be in a 0 F bag that is inside a Goretex bivy in 20-50 F weather. You would likely be happy with that rig in a 0 F snow drift. Personally, I don’t use a bivy sack much. I must have two or three or four, but they are too constricting. For 3+ season camping, I use a little Kelty Clark tent. It is rated for 1.5 people, so it ought to fit you fine <g. I’m not very wide or tall, so I find it relatively spacious. It has squeezed two before. Actually, I use it for four seasons, but most people would not. Pros and cons. My various bivy sacks go from one pound to three pounds. My Kelty Clark tent is slightly over three pounds. —Bob Gross—
Yes. I should have specified the temp range. I used to use this setup in – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fall/Winter in KY/TN which means 20-50 degrees F. The bag has lost some of its loft so it does great in this range. In Summer, I just lie on my pad and throw the bag over me, opened up. I would have multiple bags but I can’t find a bag that fits me. I have 42" shoulders and I toss around in my sleep like I’m on fire. Normal width bags just end up feeling like I’m sleeping with a boa constrictor. I digress…the 10-degree bag is my only one because I can’t find another. I do tend to sleep warm (bag zipper open with one leg out, even in Winter). Tentwise, I have a Megamid and a TNF Aerohead. The megamid is palacial but out of the question for Ontario in Spring (bugs). The Aerohead is rock solid but a PITA to pitch. The bivy was the lightweight solution for me but it’s just too damp and confining for me. If I could cure the dampness issue, I might keep it but I think maybe the best solution is to sell the bivy and get a solo 3-season tent.
Response:
Greg, it would be helpful if you stated the temperature range over which you get this problem. If the bag is rated for 0 F, then if the weather is actually 0 F and you are still getting that steamy, then maybe it is YOU. Some folks are just warm sleepers. If the bag is rated for 0 F and if the weather is +40 F, then maybe your bag is too warm for that condition. The OR bivy arguably adds 10 degrees of warmth to the naked bag. I think some of us who camp out in a wide range of conditions is forced to have a selection of multiple bags. I use one for -20 F, one for 0 F, one for +20 F, and then I think there are one or two others that are the offspring of the first ones. —Bob Gross—
Yes. I should have specified the temp range. I used to use this setup in Fall/Winter in KY/TN which means 20-50 degrees F. The bag has lost some of its loft so it does great in this range. In Summer, I just lie on my pad and throw the bag over me, opened up. I would have multiple bags but I can’t find a bag that fits me. I have 42" shoulders and I toss around in my sleep like I’m on fire. Normal width bags just end up feeling like I’m sleeping with a boa constrictor. I digress…the 10-degree bag is my only one because I can’t find another. I do tend to sleep warm (bag zipper open with one leg out, even in Winter). Tentwise, I have a Megamid and a TNF Aerohead. The megamid is palacial but out of the question for Ontario in Spring (bugs). The Aerohead is rock solid but a PITA to pitch. The bivy was the lightweight solution for me but it’s just too damp and confining for me. If I could cure the dampness issue, I might keep it but I think maybe the best solution is to sell the bivy and get a solo 3-season tent. — Greg Smith
Response:
Greg, it would be helpful if you stated the temperature range over which you get this problem. If the bag is rated for 0 F, then if the weather is actually 0 F and you are still getting that steamy, then maybe it is YOU. Some folks are just warm sleepers. If the bag is rated for 0 F and if the weather is +40 F, then maybe your bag is too warm for that condition. The OR bivy arguably adds 10 degrees of warmth to the naked bag. I think some of us who camp out in a wide range of conditions is forced to have a selection of multiple bags. I use one for -20 F, one for 0 F, one for +20 F, and then I think there are one or two others that are the offspring of the first ones. —Bob Gross—
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a 700-fill goosedown Marmot Osprey sleeping bag with a Gore-Tex shell. It is currently my only sleeping bag. I also use an OR Advanced Bivy, also Gore-Tex. (yeah, at one time in my life I had money to burn like that) I am having a tremendous amount of condensation between the bag and the bivy. I believe that my body warmth produces sufficient vapor pressure to drive the water vapor out of the bag but when this vapor hits the bivy wall it, (a) isn’t warm enough to continue transport to the outside and (b) hits the cooler outer fabric and immediately condenses. The down stays dry for the most part thanks to the GT shell but it does dampen the down over a period of days. I would like to know if a vapor barrier liner would solve this problem, forcing the moisture to go out the bag’s head-end opening where the bivy’s netting is. Would I be better off using a fleece liner or Summer-weight, synthetic bag in the bivy rather than a 0-degree down bag? Feel free to correct my home-brewed, thermodynamic theories. — Greg Smith
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have a 700-fill goosedown Marmot Osprey sleeping bag with a Gore-Tex shell. It is currently my only sleeping bag. I also use an OR Advanced Bivy, also Gore-Tex. (yeah, at one time in my life I had money to burn like that) I am having a tremendous amount of condensation between the bag and the bivy. I believe that my body warmth produces sufficient vapor pressure to drive the water vapor out of the bag but when this vapor hits the bivy wall it, (a) isn’t warm enough to continue transport to the outside and (b) hits the cooler outer fabric and immediately condenses. The down stays dry for the most part thanks to the GT shell but it does dampen the down over a period of days. I would like to know if a vapor barrier liner would solve this problem, forcing the moisture to go out the bag’s head-end opening where the bivy’s netting is. Would I be better off using a fleece liner or Summer-weight, synthetic bag in the bivy rather than a 0-degree down bag? Feel free to correct my home-brewed, thermodynamic theories.
Vapor barriers will keep moisture from passing through to the bag and you might want to try one to see how it works. I have had people tell me that they felt like they were sleeping in a plastic bag. I like synthetic bags. The Super light from www.wiggys.com is one of my favorites. It is very good at moving moisture from you to the outside of the bag. During freezing weather the outside of the bag will frost up, but you, the lining, and the fill will be dry. During warmer weather you will have some condensation on the outside of the bag. Wiggys Ultra light is rated for around 20 degrees as I recall [the Super Light is rated for 0 degrees] and might be a better choice for camping in less demanding climates. One problem with a bivy can be the water vapor that you exhale as you breathe can quickly dampen your shelter. This can happen without regard to your sleeping bag. I prefer a small one man tent to a bivy for several reasons, including condensation.
Response:
I have a 700-fill goosedown Marmot Osprey sleeping bag with a Gore-Tex shell. It is currently my only sleeping bag. I also use an OR Advanced Bivy, also Gore-Tex. (yeah, at one time in my life I had money to burn like that) I am having a tremendous amount of condensation between the bag and the bivy. I believe that my body warmth produces sufficient vapor pressure to drive the water vapor out of the bag but when this vapor hits the bivy wall it, (a) isn’t warm enough to continue transport to the outside and (b) hits the cooler outer fabric and immediately condenses. The down stays dry for the most part thanks to the GT shell but it does dampen the down over a period of days. I would like to know if a vapor barrier liner would solve this problem, forcing the moisture to go out the bag’s head-end opening where the bivy’s netting is. Would I be better off using a fleece liner or Summer-weight, synthetic bag in the bivy rather than a 0-degree down bag? Feel free to correct my home-brewed, thermodynamic theories. — Greg Smith
Response:
I am having a tremendous amount of condensation between the bag and the bivy. I believe that my body warmth produces sufficient vapor pressure to drive the water vapor out of the bag but when this vapor hits the bivy wall it, (a) isn’t warm enough to continue transport to the outside and (b) hits the cooler outer fabric and immediately condenses. The down stays dry for the most part thanks to the GT shell but it does dampen the down over a period of days. I would like to know if a vapor barrier liner would solve this problem, forcing the moisture to go out the bag’s head-end opening where the bivy’s netting is. Would I be better off using a fleece liner or Summer-weight, synthetic bag in the bivy rather than a 0-degree down bag?
I use a vapor barrier liner (VBL) mainly to extend the temperature range of my lightweight bag and find it to be very effective under the proper conditions. Your skin regulates the amount of water that passes through to the surface for two purposes: 1) to cool you down if you’re overheating, and 2) to keep the skin from drying out. If your sleeping bag is keeping you so warm that your body needs to lose heat through evaporation of perspiration, then you’re going to be miserable inside a VBL as sweat builds up inside it and is trapped there. You’ll also have problems if you’re wearing lots of clothes inside the VBL. The clothing will allow moisture to wick away from your skin thereby drying it. Then your body reacts by releasing more moisture to the skin’s surface and pretty soon your clothes are very damp. So you need two conditions: 1) the temperature is low enough that overheating is not a problem. I have a light down bag rated for +20 degrees and never use a VBL unless the temperature is below 30 degrees. 2) wear only a minimal amount of clothing inside the VBL – that way the air trapped around your body by the VBL becomes very humid so your skin stays moist and your body reacts by cutting the release of moisture from the skin. The idea of the VBL is not to force the moisture out the small opening at your head, but rather to cut down on the amount of moisture released by your skin durin the night. In addition to staying warmer, I find that I am markedly less thirsty in the morning when using a VBL. And of course there is no condensation problem inside the tent or bivy sack. With a 0 degree bag, I’d only recommend a VBL on very cold nights – or use a lighter weight bag with the VBL.
Response:
Question:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The AGRIBUSINESS EXAMINER Monitoring Corporate Agribusiness From a Public Interest Perspective A.V. Krebs EditorPublisher Issue #137 Christmas Eve, 2001 COMMENTARY: "THE LIMITS OF TYRANTS ARE PRESCRIBED BY THE ENDURANCE OF THOSE WHOM THEY OPPRESS" "If you want my corn gentlemen, you must meet my quote, plus 5% for the delay!" "That’s outrageous Scrooge, you’ll be left with a warehouse stuffed with corn." "Well, that’s my affair, isn’t it? Buy the corn someplace else, good day sir" "Scrooge, a moment. We’ll take your corn at the price you quoted yesterday." "Too late! you wait until tomorrow and it will cost you another 5%!" "Damn it Scrooge, it’s not fair!" "No, but it’s business!" — A Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens, CBS-TV, December 22, 1985 Business and fairness have always been rather incompatible perch mates, but in Year 2001 corporations — which Ambrose Bierce in his Devil’s Dictionary defined as those "inglorious devices for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility" — have come to not only making fairness an obsolete business term, but are well on their way to destroying the very concept of economic democracy without which, as Thomas Jefferson so frequently reminded us, we cannot have political democracy. Not only do these corporations see themselves as impervious to accountability but their responsibility when it comes to the public trust is marginally legitimate if not illicit. Witness how since September 11 we have seen corporate America wrap itself in the flag as means to better fleece the public and its treasury. Corporate agribusiness is no exception to the rule of violating the public trust as headlines plucked from the past year shows: * Black Employees, in Lawsuit, Accuse Cargill of Discrimination * DuPont Convicted of Racketeering in Benlate Case * Washington [State] is investigating the IBP meatpacking plant after a secretly shot video shows cows kicking while being butchered * ADM fined $35.3 million in EU price-fixing probe * Poisoned Plantations: Ex-workers in Nicaraguan banana fields sue U.S. firms over illnesses linked to toxic fumigant * Groups Sue Smithfield for Hog Pollution * Tyson Foods indicted: Company, workers charged with conspiracy to smuggle into U.S. * Shareholders Sue ConAgra Directors Over Restated Earnings Just last week we saw corporate agribusiness in action on the farm policy and legislative front working furiously in the U.S. Senate with their Republican Party brethren to deny family farm agriculture the means to earn a fair price for what they produce and the ability to produce food that is healthy and safe. While the media, led by the New York Times and Washington Post, once again mistakenly sought to characterize the Senate farm bill debate as simply a question of who should get and who didn’t deserve expensive farm subsidies, corporate agribusiness and its White House minions were busy exploiting — for their own selfish gain — the regionalism and commodityism that has become such a destructive force in American agriculture. Clearly the current debate over domestic farm policy needs a proper focus and that focus should be on the perpetrators who are profiting the most from the self-serving policies — such as the infamous Freedom to Farm Act — of the past, namely corporate agribusiness and specifically the ADMs, Cargills, ConAgras, Tysons, IBPs, Smithfields, Krafts and their ilk. It is time to realize that the buck doesn’t stop at the Congressperson or the Senator’s desk, but rather in corporate boardrooms all over America. The famous abolitionist Frederick Douglass reminds us "find out just what people will submit to and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong that can be imposed on them." Indeed it is time that family farm agriculture put aside their petty differences like regionalism and commodityism, reject representation by so-called farm organizations that disregard their best interests, and demand that the U.S. Department of Agriculture be refocused to once against work on behalf of agriculture and not simply act as an adjunct to the U.S. Department of Commerce. Likewise, family farmers need to reacquaint themselves with their rich agrarian populist history as an economic, social and political force and cast their democratic vote not out of some regional or family tradition, but rather for those men and women who are willing to speak truth to power on their behalf. At the same time family farm agriculture needs to launch an aggressive grass roots educational campaign aimed at the consumers of their products, showing the consuming public how they are putting their own health and safety and that of their children at serious risk if they continue to keep patronizing corporate agribusiness and that by denying farmers and ranchers a fair price for what they produce they are seriously undermining not only the social and environmental fabric of our nation, but our economic well-being as well. Amidst the welcoming of a new year it would be well to keep in mind a Douglass admonition: "Those who profess favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightening. They want the ocean without the awful roar of the waters. This struggle may be both moral and physical, but it must be a struggle . . . The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." AMERICAN FARMER NOT DRAINING THE U.S TREASURY REAL TRANSFER OF WEALTH ACCUMULATING IN CORPORATE AGRIBUSINESS BANK ACCOUNTS KEITH MUDD, ST. LOUIS TODAY: Recently a great deal has been written and Web pages have been developed calling attention to subsidy payments to farmers and landowners. While farm subsidies, on the surface, look like transfer payments to farmers and landowners, they are actually corporate subsidies for agribusiness conglomerates like Cargill and Archer Daniels Midland. This farm commodity program can be compared to the minimum wage. The federal minimum wage law sets a floor on payments by employers to workers. Suppose Congress changed this program and permitted business owners to pay whatever they wanted for a wage while requiring the worker to collect from the U.S. Treasury the disparity between the minimum wage and what his/her employer pays. In this example who is being subsidized? While the worker still earns the minimum wage, the employer is being subsidized because he receives the benefit. The farm program functions much the same way. The support price of corn is less than $2 a bushel. The same price a bushel of corn sold for 30 years ago! But Cargill and ADM each purchased millions of bushels of corn this past fall for less than the support price because they have no competition. In the past, the farm program caused big agribusiness to pay at least the minimum price. Now, the farmer collects the difference between the support price and the Cargill/ADM price from the taxpayers. Big agribusiness receives the benefit. Much has been written about the cost of a farm program. It is usually the intention of the writer to sway public opinion against this costly program that pays farmers when the prices of their commodities are below a predetermined price. Recently the idea of taking part of this money and diverting it to other uses such as conservation is being viewed as an alternative. Spending money on conservation is a necessity, conserving our soil and protecting our water are top priorities for every farmer. The problem is that conservation is an entirely different issue from farm subsidies. The Environmental Working Group argues that most of the subsidies go to the largest of farmers, who in turn use it to buy out their smaller neighbors. The truth is that all farmers, regardless of size, must use the subsidy just to raise the value received for their commodity above the cost of production. In most instances, the cost of production is covered and something is left over for living expenses. In practically no instance is anything left over that would be considered a return on investment (land and equity). As margins shrink, volume must increase to maintain a viable operation. As farm sizes have increased, smaller farmers often quit and seek off-farm employment rather than take on the additional risk to expand. In some cases, the smaller farmers are not financially able to take additional risk. If the Environmental Working Group’s theory is correct, higher prices will cause the same results. Regardless of where the income comes from, larger farmers will have the funds to buy out smaller neighbors. Therefore, it is not the subsidy that allows the larger farmers to buy out their smaller neighbor, it is the system. If Cargill and ADM had to pay for our production, the subsidy would not be necessary. If commodity prices were higher, farmers would make money from farming, would be less inclined to quit and would reduce the opportunity to expand farm size. Most problems on the farms of rural American can be traced to one
… read more »
Response:
COMMENTARY: "THE LIMITS OF TYRANTS ARE PRESCRIBED BY THE ENDURANCE OF THOSE WHOM THEY OPPRESS" UNITED NATIONS SPECIAL RAPPORTEUR CHARGES U.S EXPORTING OF BANNED CHEMICAL POISONS RECOGNIZED AS HARMFUL IS "IMMORAL"
wow First of all thanks for the quote. what a great quote. I must say that the state of agriculture today is one thing that disturbs me. It is truely rediculouse and deeply painfull to see that your government is about to actually hand out free money to the overtly greedy ("middle men") corporations who have built this crisis. and why, just so that they can keep it going. Then you go on to expose a sickness in the republican party that demonstrates horid greed to the extent of greatly endangering their own children. ouch. Then you go on to describe a report done by some lady exposeing what chemical companies are doing to developing nations. that last one truely distubed me. I like to beleive that us in north america can destroy ourselves as long as we can live with it. I was not aware that we freely export sickness worst than are own very low standards. thank you for the good news in tyson facing difficulties. and well for all the other news, F**k You cause I feel like s**t now. Right now Im actually angry. Public awareness is important but for gods sake lets get some scope here. Number 1 How many farmers are there? Farmers stand to make great money if the agriculture industry was re worked to support family farms and discurage corporate. How many people can you get together. Its not like city folks enjoy paying these corporate pigs. We would love to support the farmer. I hear the farmer gets 10 cents on the food dollar spent. thats sick. build coops. organize farmers, come on. What can a million organized people that control agriculture do. ow and for the pesticide isue I just say f**k you as a nation for being so f**king stupid.
Response:
I am new to the group just been here a few minutes, was pretty shocked at what I read in christians statement and although I dont agree with some of the temper, snicker, I do agree with what hes saying, we are a small farmer, marketing for small farmers, improving their income keeping the family farm going, corporations dont need to be involved. So maybe I am in the wrong place here I noticed this was sci agriculture, then the religion wicca, Can someone fill me in more on the topics on this list, first time on a newsgroup, Thanks Lee
Response:
I am new to the group just been here a few minutes, was pretty shocked at what I read in christians statement and although I dont agree with some of the temper, snicker, I do agree with what hes saying, we are a small farmer, marketing for small farmers, improving their income keeping the family farm going, corporations dont need to be involved. So maybe I am in the wrong place here I noticed this was sci agriculture, then the religion wicca, Can someone fill me in more on the topics on this list, first time on a newsgroup,
What group are you looking for? You are posting to four groups. alt.religion.wicca; sci.environment; talk.environment; and sci.agriculture My guess, from you post, is sci.agriculture. What you’ll have to do is download a sampling -say 300 or so posts- and read them. When replying, if you see more than one group in the "Newsgroups" box in your reply, you’ll know what you’re writing is going to go out to more than one group. If you don’t want this to happen, just remove the extra groups. Very simple. .nik (from alt.religion.wicca) — http://blujuju.port5.com http://home.earthlink.net/~blujuju http://awou.iwarp.com *in odd we trust* – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Lee
Response:
I am new to the group just been here a few minutes, was pretty shocked at what I read in christians statement and although I dont agree with some of the temper, snicker, I do agree with what hes saying, we are a small farmer, marketing for small farmers, improving their income keeping the family farm going, corporations dont need to be involved. So maybe I am in the wrong place here I noticed this was sci agriculture, then the religion wicca, Can someone fill me in more on the topics on this list, first time on a newsgroup, Thanks Lee
Lee, A lot of stuff gets cross posted to sci.agrculture. There are some of us with lifetime backgrounds in agriculture here that try to respond to agricultural posts and take a whack or two at the more outragous claims made by some. News groups are a close to anarcy as you can get. The is no one in contorl and there is no way to control what is posted. Learn how to use a kill file if the off topic stuff bothers you. In this group the threads wander a lot so after a few days the subject line may not mean much. Anything related to agriculture is fair game here. — Gordon Gordon Couger Stillwater, OK www.couger.com/gcouger
Response:
I am new to the group just been here a few minutes, was pretty shocked at what I read in christians statement and although I dont agree with some of the temper, snicker, I do agree with what hes saying, we are a small farmer, marketing for small farmers, improving their income keeping the family farm going, corporations dont need to be involved. So maybe I am in the wrong place here I noticed this was sci agriculture, then the religion wicca, Can someone fill me in more on the topics on this list, first time on a newsgroup, Thanks Lee
looking at your post you are using Outlook Express. If you click on "reply group" the message will show, in its Newsgroups line, which news groups your message is being sent to. You can quite happily remove messages from this line by simply deleteing them. To many cross posts is regarded as the sign of those whose self important has got the better of them. As I’m not sure where you are reading I haven’t deleted any of the groups. — Jim Webster "The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind" ’Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami’
Response:
Dear Chive….. do you farm? I do…. I am one of those nasty republicans you write of, yet I only spray when I have to. Organic is not the only alternative. The house wife dictates when produce is in the market, not the Republicans. She also dictates that the fruit be free of blemish and almost perfect in color or size, not the republicans and sure as hell not the farmer. Believe me if I could get rid of my spraying costs I would love to. In regards to the government subsidizing….. most crops grown do not get subsidies only a few….. I did not hear you bitching when my beautiful plums were only $1 f.o.b. last year and the box itself cost me $1. Try looking from the other side of the fence now and then.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The AGRIBUSINESS EXAMINER Monitoring Corporate Agribusiness From a Public Interest Perspective A.V. Krebs EditorPublisher Issue #137 Christmas Eve, 2001 COMMENTARY: "THE LIMITS OF TYRANTS ARE PRESCRIBED BY THE ENDURANCE OF THOSE WHOM THEY OPPRESS" "If you want my corn gentlemen, you must meet my quote, plus 5% for the delay!" "That’s outrageous Scrooge, you’ll be left with a warehouse stuffed with corn." "Well, that’s my affair, isn’t it? Buy the corn someplace else, good day sir" "Scrooge, a moment. We’ll take your corn at the price you quoted yesterday." "Too late! you wait until tomorrow and it will cost you another 5%!" "Damn it Scrooge, it’s not fair!" "No, but it’s business!" — A Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens, CBS-TV, December 22, 1985 Business and fairness have always been rather incompatible perch mates, but in Year 2001 corporations — which Ambrose Bierce in his Devil’s Dictionary defined as those "inglorious devices for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility" — have come to not only making fairness an obsolete business term, but are well on their way to destroying the very concept of economic democracy without which, as Thomas Jefferson so frequently reminded us, we cannot have political democracy. Not only do these corporations see themselves as impervious to accountability but their responsibility when it comes to the public trust is marginally legitimate if not illicit. Witness how since September 11 we have seen corporate America wrap itself in the flag as means to better fleece the public and its treasury. Corporate agribusiness is no exception to the rule of violating the public trust as headlines plucked from the past year shows: * Black Employees, in Lawsuit, Accuse Cargill of Discrimination * DuPont Convicted of Racketeering in Benlate Case * Washington [State] is investigating the IBP meatpacking plant after a secretly shot video shows cows kicking while being butchered * ADM fined $35.3 million in EU price-fixing probe * Poisoned Plantations: Ex-workers in Nicaraguan banana fields sue U.S. firms over illnesses linked to toxic fumigant * Groups Sue Smithfield for Hog Pollution * Tyson Foods indicted: Company, workers charged with conspiracy to smuggle into U.S. * Shareholders Sue ConAgra Directors Over Restated Earnings Just last week we saw corporate agribusiness in action on the farm policy and legislative front working furiously in the U.S. Senate with their Republican Party brethren to deny family farm agriculture the means to earn a fair price for what they produce and the ability to produce food that is healthy and safe. While the media, led by the New York Times and Washington Post, once again mistakenly sought to characterize the Senate farm bill debate as simply a question of who should get and who didn’t deserve expensive farm subsidies, corporate agribusiness and its White House minions were busy exploiting — for their own selfish gain — the regionalism and commodityism that has become such a destructive force in American agriculture. Clearly the current debate over domestic farm policy needs a proper focus and that focus should be on the perpetrators who are profiting the most from the self-serving policies — such as the infamous Freedom to Farm Act — of the past, namely corporate agribusiness and specifically the ADMs, Cargills, ConAgras, Tysons, IBPs, Smithfields, Krafts and their ilk. It is time to realize that the buck doesn’t stop at the Congressperson or the Senator’s desk, but rather in corporate boardrooms all over America. The famous abolitionist Frederick Douglass reminds us "find out just what people will submit to and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong that can be imposed on them." Indeed it is time that family farm agriculture put aside their petty differences like regionalism and commodityism, reject representation by so-called farm organizations that disregard their best interests, and demand that the U.S. Department of Agriculture be refocused to once against work on behalf of agriculture and not simply act as an adjunct to the U.S. Department of Commerce. Likewise, family farmers need to reacquaint themselves with their rich agrarian populist history as an economic, social and political force and cast their democratic vote not out of some regional or family tradition, but rather for those men and women who are willing to speak truth to power on their behalf. At the same time family farm agriculture needs to launch an aggressive grass roots educational campaign aimed at the consumers of their products, showing the consuming public how they are putting their own health and safety and that of their children at serious risk if they continue to keep patronizing corporate agribusiness and that by denying farmers and ranchers a fair price for what they produce they are seriously undermining not only the social and environmental fabric of our nation, but our economic well-being as well. Amidst the welcoming of a new year it would be well to keep in mind a Douglass admonition: "Those who profess favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightening. They want the ocean without the awful roar of the waters. This struggle may be both moral and physical, but it must be a struggle . . . The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." AMERICAN FARMER NOT DRAINING THE U.S TREASURY REAL TRANSFER OF WEALTH ACCUMULATING IN CORPORATE AGRIBUSINESS BANK ACCOUNTS KEITH MUDD, ST. LOUIS TODAY: Recently a great deal has been written and Web pages have been developed calling attention to subsidy payments to farmers and landowners. While farm subsidies, on the surface, look like transfer payments to farmers and landowners, they are actually corporate subsidies for agribusiness conglomerates like Cargill and Archer Daniels Midland. This farm commodity program can be compared to the minimum wage. The federal minimum wage law sets a floor on payments by employers to workers. Suppose Congress changed this program and permitted business owners to pay whatever they wanted for a wage while requiring the worker to collect from the U.S. Treasury the disparity between the minimum wage and what his/her employer pays. In this example who is being subsidized? While the worker still earns the minimum wage, the employer is being subsidized because he receives the benefit. The farm program functions much the same way. The support price of corn is less than $2 a bushel. The same price a bushel of corn sold for 30 years ago! But Cargill and ADM each purchased millions of bushels of corn this past fall for less than the support price because they have no competition. In the past, the farm program caused big agribusiness to pay at least the minimum price. Now, the farmer collects the difference between the support price and the Cargill/ADM price from the taxpayers. Big agribusiness receives the benefit. Much has been written about the cost of a farm program. It is usually the intention of the writer to sway public opinion against this costly program that pays farmers when the prices of their commodities are below a predetermined price. Recently the idea of taking part of this money and diverting it to other uses such as conservation is being viewed as an alternative. Spending money on conservation is a necessity, conserving our soil and protecting our water are top priorities for every farmer. The problem is that conservation is an entirely different issue from farm subsidies. The Environmental Working Group argues that most of the subsidies go to the largest of farmers, who in turn use it to buy out their smaller neighbors. The truth is that all farmers, regardless of size, must use the subsidy just to raise the value received for their commodity above the cost of production. In most instances, the cost of production is covered and something is left over for living expenses. In practically no instance is anything left over that would be considered a return on investment (land and equity). As margins shrink, volume must increase to maintain a viable operation. As farm sizes have increased, smaller farmers often quit and seek off-farm employment rather than take on the additional risk to expand. In some cases, the smaller farmers are not financially able to take additional risk. If the Environmental Working Group’s theory is correct, higher prices will cause the same results. Regardless of where the income comes from, larger farmers will have the funds to buy out smaller neighbors. Therefore, it is not the subsidy that allows the larger farmers to buy out their smaller neighbor, it is the system. If Cargill and ADM had to pay for our production, the subsidy would not be necessary.
… read more »
Response:
The AGRIBUSINESS EXAMINER Monitoring Corporate Agribusiness From a Public Interest Perspective A.V. Krebs EditorPublisher Issue #137 Christmas Eve, 2001 COMMENTARY: "THE LIMITS OF TYRANTS ARE PRESCRIBED BY THE ENDURANCE OF THOSE WHOM THEY OPPRESS" "If you want my corn gentlemen, you must meet my quote, plus 5% for the delay!" "That’s outrageous Scrooge, you’ll be left with a warehouse stuffed with corn." "Well, that’s my affair, isn’t it? Buy the corn someplace else, good day sir" "Scrooge, a moment. We’ll take your corn at the price you quoted yesterday." "Too late! you wait until tomorrow and it will cost you another 5%!" "Damn it Scrooge, it’s not fair!" "No, but it’s business!" — A Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens, CBS-TV, December 22, 1985 Business and fairness have always been rather incompatible perch mates, but in Year 2001 corporations — which Ambrose Bierce in his Devil’s Dictionary defined as those "inglorious devices for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility" — have come to not only making fairness an obsolete business term, but are well on their way to destroying the very concept of economic democracy without which, as Thomas Jefferson so frequently reminded us, we cannot have political democracy. Not only do these corporations see themselves as impervious to accountability but their responsibility when it comes to the public trust is marginally legitimate if not illicit. Witness how since September 11 we have seen corporate America wrap itself in the flag as means to better fleece the public and its treasury. Corporate agribusiness is no exception to the rule of violating the public trust as headlines plucked from the past year shows: * Black Employees, in Lawsuit, Accuse Cargill of Discrimination * DuPont Convicted of Racketeering in Benlate Case * Washington [State] is investigating the IBP meatpacking plant after a secretly shot video shows cows kicking while being butchered * ADM fined $35.3 million in EU price-fixing probe * Poisoned Plantations: Ex-workers in Nicaraguan banana fields sue U.S. firms over illnesses linked to toxic fumigant * Groups Sue Smithfield for Hog Pollution * Tyson Foods indicted: Company, workers charged with conspiracy to smuggle into U.S. * Shareholders Sue ConAgra Directors Over Restated Earnings Just last week we saw corporate agribusiness in action on the farm policy and legislative front working furiously in the U.S. Senate with their Republican Party brethren to deny family farm agriculture the means to earn a fair price for what they produce and the ability to produce food that is healthy and safe. While the media, led by the New York Times and Washington Post, once again mistakenly sought to characterize the Senate farm bill debate as simply a question of who should get and who didn’t deserve expensive farm subsidies, corporate agribusiness and its White House minions were busy exploiting — for their own selfish gain — the regionalism and commodityism that has become such a destructive force in American agriculture. Clearly the current debate over domestic farm policy needs a proper focus and that focus should be on the perpetrators who are profiting the most from the self-serving policies — such as the infamous Freedom to Farm Act — of the past, namely corporate agribusiness and specifically the ADMs, Cargills, ConAgras, Tysons, IBPs, Smithfields, Krafts and their ilk. It is time to realize that the buck doesn’t stop at the Congressperson or the Senator’s desk, but rather in corporate boardrooms all over America. The famous abolitionist Frederick Douglass reminds us "find out just what people will submit to and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong that can be imposed on them." Indeed it is time that family farm agriculture put aside their petty differences like regionalism and commodityism, reject representation by so-called farm organizations that disregard their best interests, and demand that the U.S. Department of Agriculture be refocused to once against work on behalf of agriculture and not simply act as an adjunct to the U.S. Department of Commerce. Likewise, family farmers need to reacquaint themselves with their rich agrarian populist history as an economic, social and political force and cast their democratic vote not out of some regional or family tradition, but rather for those men and women who are willing to speak truth to power on their behalf. At the same time family farm agriculture needs to launch an aggressive grass roots educational campaign aimed at the consumers of their products, showing the consuming public how they are putting their own health and safety and that of their children at serious risk if they continue to keep patronizing corporate agribusiness and that by denying farmers and ranchers a fair price for what they produce they are seriously undermining not only the social and environmental fabric of our nation, but our economic well-being as well. Amidst the welcoming of a new year it would be well to keep in mind a Douglass admonition: "Those who profess favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightening. They want the ocean without the awful roar of the waters. This struggle may be both moral and physical, but it must be a struggle . . . The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." AMERICAN FARMER NOT DRAINING THE U.S TREASURY REAL TRANSFER OF WEALTH ACCUMULATING IN CORPORATE AGRIBUSINESS BANK ACCOUNTS KEITH MUDD, ST. LOUIS TODAY: Recently a great deal has been written and Web pages have been developed calling attention to subsidy payments to farmers and landowners. While farm subsidies, on the surface, look like transfer payments to farmers and landowners, they are actually corporate subsidies for agribusiness conglomerates like Cargill and Archer Daniels Midland. This farm commodity program can be compared to the minimum wage. The federal minimum wage law sets a floor on payments by employers to workers. Suppose Congress changed this program and permitted business owners to pay whatever they wanted for a wage while requiring the worker to collect from the U.S. Treasury the disparity between the minimum wage and what his/her employer pays. In this example who is being subsidized? While the worker still earns the minimum wage, the employer is being subsidized because he receives the benefit. The farm program functions much the same way. The support price of corn is less than $2 a bushel. The same price a bushel of corn sold for 30 years ago! But Cargill and ADM each purchased millions of bushels of corn this past fall for less than the support price because they have no competition. In the past, the farm program caused big agribusiness to pay at least the minimum price. Now, the farmer collects the difference between the support price and the Cargill/ADM price from the taxpayers. Big agribusiness receives the benefit. Much has been written about the cost of a farm program. It is usually the intention of the writer to sway public opinion against this costly program that pays farmers when the prices of their commodities are below a predetermined price. Recently the idea of taking part of this money and diverting it to other uses such as conservation is being viewed as an alternative. Spending money on conservation is a necessity, conserving our soil and protecting our water are top priorities for every farmer. The problem is that conservation is an entirely different issue from farm subsidies. The Environmental Working Group argues that most of the subsidies go to the largest of farmers, who in turn use it to buy out their smaller neighbors. The truth is that all farmers, regardless of size, must use the subsidy just to raise the value received for their commodity above the cost of production. In most instances, the cost of production is covered and something is left over for living expenses. In practically no instance is anything left over that would be considered a return on investment (land and equity). As margins shrink, volume must increase to maintain a viable operation. As farm sizes have increased, smaller farmers often quit and seek off-farm employment rather than take on the additional risk to expand. In some cases, the smaller farmers are not financially able to take additional risk. If the Environmental Working Group’s theory is correct, higher prices will cause the same results. Regardless of where the income comes from, larger farmers will have the funds to buy out smaller neighbors. Therefore, it is not the subsidy that allows the larger farmers to buy out their smaller neighbor, it is the system. If Cargill and ADM had to pay for our production, the subsidy would not be necessary. If commodity prices were higher, farmers would make money from farming, would be less inclined to quit and would reduce the opportunity to expand farm size. Most problems on the farms of rural American can be traced to one fundamental cause. The underlying problem with farm income is concentration. As our input suppliers and the purchasers of our products consolidate, they acquire market power. This market power is leveraged against the farmer when he sells his crop. As an example, our current corn stocks as a percentage of use, in other words our leftovers, are at levels that would have been rewarded with $3 a bushel corn. But corn sells for less than $2 a bushel. Cargill and ADM have no serious competition in the marketplace and the government is willing to make up the difference in this minimum price scheme. Look somewhere else for a scapegoat; it is not the American farmer draining the United States Treasury. The real transfer of wealth is accumulating in Cargill and ADM’s bank accounts. Keith Mudd is a farmer near Monroe City, Missouri FAMILY FARMERS ANGRY NEITHER HOUSE OR SENATE FARM BILLS CONFRONT … read more »
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FYI From clari.local.massachusetts AP : : : BOSTON (AP) — Malden Mills Industries Inc., the company made : famous when it kept its employees on the payroll while it recovered : from a devastating fire, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection : Thursday. … : The company makes Polartec fleece, a : synthetic fabric used to make and insulate clothing. …
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Whoa… Thats a shock. Aren’t they the best at that stuff? I just bought from lands end a new Polartec Aircore 200 fabric jacket. They have always made good stuff. Thanks for the heads up! John
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – FYI From clari.local.massachusetts AP : : : BOSTON (AP) — Malden Mills Industries Inc., the company made : famous when it kept its employees on the payroll while it recovered : from a devastating fire, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection : Thursday. … : The company makes Polartec fleece, a : synthetic fabric used to make and insulate clothing. …
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Whoa… Thats a shock. Aren’t they the best at that stuff? I just bought from lands end a new Polartec Aircore 200 fabric jacket. They have always made good stuff. Thanks for the heads up!
my money is on reorganization… too many companies depend on them for product. I don’t think they are going to go away too soon. Penny S
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Whoa… Thats a shock. Aren’t they the best at that stuff? I just bought from lands end a new Polartec Aircore 200 fabric jacket. They have always made good stuff. my money is on reorganization… too many companies depend on them for product. I don’t think they are going to go away too soon. Penny S
Yes, they make a very high quality product, but there are many mills around the world making similar-looking, lower quality, lower price fleece. A much more competitive market than ten years ago. Back then, fleecewear was only at specialty outdoor stores, now it’s at every discount store. Yes, many manufacturers do depend on Malden Mills for their supplies. As well, the Lawrence, MA area depends on the mill for jobs. The political establishment, including Senators Kennedy and Kerry, are involved in all of this, trying to maintain the mill. It would be sad to see the long term result of Mr. Feurstein’s decency to be the loss of the mill. Happy trails, Gary (net.yogi.bear) at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
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It would be sad to see the long term result of Mr. Feurstein’s decency to be the loss of the mill.
Perhaps employees will return the favor and take a voluntary pay reduction. (How naive did that sound?) Boycott products manufactured in or built with components from communist China
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Hey… Its pretty hard to boycott products manufactured in or built with components from communist China. Any suggestions? John
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It would be sad to see the long term result of Mr. Feurstein’s decency to be the loss of the mill. Perhaps employees will return the favor and take a voluntary pay reduction. (How naive did that sound?) Boycott products manufactured in or built with components from communist China
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: Hey… Its pretty hard to boycott products manufactured in or built with : components from communist China … and at the same time suggest Malden Mill’s employee helping the company from dying — why not just let market economy do its things and kill Malden Mill?
: : Perhaps employees will return the favor and take a voluntary pay : reduction. : (How naive did that sound?) : : : Boycott products manufactured in or built with components from communist : China : —
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FYI From clari.local.massachusetts AP : : : BOSTON (AP) — Malden Mills Industries Inc., the company made : famous when it kept its employees on the payroll while it recovered : from a devastating fire, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection : Thursday.
Sad news. I’m sure Muskie will find a way to blame this on Bush…
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… and at the same time suggest Malden Mill’s employee helping the company from dying — why not just let market economy do its things and kill Malden Mill?
Fine by me. I just threw out the suggestion in response to distressed sounding posts. Malden is a good example of a corp. with heart, but will the employees show the same loyalty? Probably not if they’re union. If so, the market will have plenty of help killing off Malden. Boycott products manufactured in or built with components from communist China
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Hey… Its pretty hard to boycott products manufactured in or built with components from communist China. Any suggestions?
It’s an aspirational goal–you do what you can. Kind of like choosing to use fewer petroleum products while recognizing that total elimination is unlikely. It’s not that hard to do on a limited scope. Example: I needed a tire pressure guage the other day. One made in china for $.99, the other made in the US for $2.50. I bought the one made in the US. OTOH, automobiles of every make are built with parts from all over, so I bought a Nissan with a clear conscience (built in TN anyway). Getting back to Malden: I only buy polartec fleece products, despite their premium price when compared to imports. Still, if they can’t compete, they can’t compete… Boycott products manufactured in or built with components from communist China
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Speaking of Polartec… I just got one of there new Aircore 200 Jackets. Anyone have anything to say about them? John
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey… Its pretty hard to boycott products manufactured in or built with components from communist China. Any suggestions? It’s an aspirational goal–you do what you can. Kind of like choosing to use fewer petroleum products while recognizing that total elimination is unlikely. It’s not that hard to do on a limited scope. Example: I needed a tire pressure guage the other day. One made in china for $.99, the other made in the US for $2.50. I bought the one made in the US. OTOH, automobiles of every make are built with parts from all over, so I bought a Nissan with a clear conscience (built in TN anyway). Getting back to Malden: I only buy polartec fleece products, despite their premium price when compared to imports. Still, if they can’t compete, they can’t compete… Boycott products manufactured in or built with components from communist China
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Fine by me. I just threw out the suggestion in response to distressed sounding posts. Malden is a good example of a corp. with heart, but will the employees show the same loyalty? Probably not if they’re union. If so, the market will have plenty of help killing off Malden.
This is a routine Chapter 11 debt reorganization, no different from the many others that get companies back on their feet. The only reason that this made the news is because Malden made news in the past by acting like a company run by real people instead of robots with ice water in their veins. Yes, it is a union company, and proud to be one. Yes, the employees are being loyal, and have not forgotten when the Fuersteins supported them after the mill fire. I’m sure the company will make it through just fine, and if it was a public company, I’d be happy to own the stock. They have a bunch of new fabrics that will broaden their market once the recession eases off. They just can’t get immediate return on their R & D. I’m curious… we have one local one-person company here that makes a lot of polartec garments — coats, snowpants, kid’s suits, ski garments, hats. I’m wondering if there are a lot of other small shops making locally-sewn polartec garments around the country?
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Speaking of Polartec… I just got one of there new Aircore 200 Jackets. Anyone have anything to say about them?
soft, warm & fuzzy? ;-) Penny
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curious… we have one local one-person company here that makes a lot of polartec garments — coats, snowpants, kid’s suits, ski garments, hats. I’m wondering if there are a lot of other small shops making locally-sewn polartec garments around the country?
Tons. First just go to any craft show, and you are bound to see "fabric by Malden Mills" tags. They can’t say "Polartec" unless they get a license. And then there are many small companies that make stuff, that have either web presence or local distribution, or specialty distribution. www.beyondfleece.com is one, www.geckogear.com is another. And don’t forget the mainstream retailers such as Land’s End that use it too. Shoot, if I’m diong fleece work you can get I’m going to use Polartec. In addition, they do some (don’t know how much) retail sales of Polartec, both through retailers like Seattle Fabrics and other, the web site www.maldenmillsstore.com and their walk-in stores. The thing about Polartec is that once the general person out there learns the difference in quality between discount fleece and quality fleece, they almost never go back to junk stuff. So the product "fan club" is much bigger than just the technical clothing market, in my understanding. I’ve got an article on the good stuff vs. the junk on my site, www.specialtyoutdoors.com/fleece.htm but it’s geared more towards sewing folks. penny s
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:Hey… Its pretty hard to boycott products manufactured in or built with :components from communist China. Any suggestions? : It’s an aspirational goal–you do what you can. No. I bet you have never been to China to see what it is really like. Calling today’s China a communist country is absurd. But I will stop being off topic here. r.b has too much irrelevant rant.
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Speaking of Polartec… I just got one of there new Aircore 200 Jackets. Anyone have anything to say about them? soft, warm & fuzzy? ;-)
Only available at Lands’ (Land’s? Lands?) End, I believe. Too bad they don’t provide Tall sizes. Now would be a good time to buy a Polartec garment from LL Bean, Lands (Land’s? Lands?) End, or Penny’s Specialty Sewing! Get those inventories reduced and Malden Mills orders moving.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Speaking of Polartec… I just got one of there new Aircore 200 Jackets. Anyone have anything to say about them? soft, warm & fuzzy? ;-) Only available at Lands’ (Land’s? Lands?) End, I believe. Too bad they don’t provide Tall sizes. Now would be a good time to buy a Polartec garment from LL Bean, Lands (Land’s? Lands?) End, or Penny’s Specialty Sewing! Get those inventories reduced and Malden Mills orders moving. no
Not just lands end. You can get them from Valhalla-Pure in Canada too… I know I just did. Penny
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No. I bet you have never been to China to see what it is really like. Calling today’s China a communist country is absurd.
Perhaps I should call it "totalitarian China." Would that make you feel better? It’s own leaders refer to it as a communist state, so for simplicity that is how I refer to it. If I talked about "China," some might even think Taiwan. BTW, ask the Taiwanese, or even better the Tibetans, about what a wonderful place China is. Hell, ask the thousands of people who flee its borders every year. You’re right about my not having gone there. Why would I want to support such a state with tourism dollars? I don’t plan on going to Iraq anytime soon, either. Guess I have no right to criticize its regime either then? Boycott products manufactured in or built with components from communist China
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Hello… What do you mean no tall sizes? I got a tall size at landsend. Me=6′10 Heres the link. http://www.landsend.com/cd/fp/prod/0,2503,1_2_1931_2312_46290_34049_5… 8,00.html?sid=1007604598614 Get it quick before they change it! John
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Speaking of Polartec… I just got one of there new Aircore 200 Jackets. Anyone have anything to say about them? soft, warm & fuzzy? ;-) Only available at Lands’ (Land’s? Lands?) End, I believe. Too bad they don’t provide Tall sizes. Now would be a good time to buy a Polartec garment from LL Bean, Lands (Land’s? Lands?) End, or Penny’s Specialty Sewing! Get those inventories reduced and Malden Mills orders moving.
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<<<Why would I want to support such a state with tourism dollars? You don’t necessarily want to support the state. From my point of view, you DO want to support the individual who earns your money by providing you with a good or service. There are too many chinese people living in abject poverty and it is a good thing to help them raise themselves to a level where they can afford clean water and medicine by trading with them. Remember, you don’t trade with a state, you trade with individuals and organisations of individuals called companies. Buy chinese. Edward
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Wait a sec. If we do give our money to China then they will be able to raise themselves up to a level where they can afford clean water and medicine. We don’t want that to happen because if the population advances itself, then they will have (after everything factored) a more powerful country. So I would have to agree with MKOlester. Can’t let those beings thrive. John
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <<<Why would I want to support such a state with tourism dollars? You don’t necessarily want to support the state. From my point of view, you DO want to support the individual who earns your money by providing you with a good or service. There are too many chinese people living in abject poverty and it is a good thing to help them raise themselves to a level where they can afford clean water and medicine by trading with them. Remember, you don’t trade with a state, you trade with individuals and organisations of individuals called companies. Buy chinese. Edward
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Wait a sec. If we do give our money to China then they will be able to raise themselves up to a level where they can afford clean water and medicine. We don’t want that to happen because if the population advances itself, then they will have (after everything factored) a more powerful country. So I would have to agree with MKOlester. Can’t let those beings thrive. John
Unless your trolling, then you know nothing about the population problem in China. The families with many kids are poor and rural, not the ones with jobs and western-style lives. Chinese have no interest in growing any further, in fact they know the population pain more than us. It’s the very poor and distant who resort to more children to help put food on the table and help ensure the survival of the family lineage. Giving them access to more stable necessities will allow them to make the changes they’ve been wanting to make. I’m sure you’ve expended all of your intelligence for the week writing your last tirade, so if you don’t reply I’ll understand. Dave
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Remember, you don’t trade with a state, you trade with individuals and organisations of individuals called companies.
Do those individuals and organizations somehow avoid taxes, licensing fees, etc? If not, then when you trade with a nation’s citizens you are also trading with its government. As the money that actually goes to an individual passes hands, the state will usually take another bite. A portion of any money you put into a nation’s economy is eventually going to end up in the hands of its government. There are too many chinese people living in abject poverty and it is a good thing to help them raise themselves to a level where they can afford clean water and medicine by trading with them.
It’s a human tragedy, but there are people in America who live in abject poverty. Why should I concern myself with China more than my own nation? For that matter, why should I be more concerned about China than, say, any of the African nations suffering famine? Boycott products manufactured in or built with components from communist China
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Wait a sec. If we do give our money to China then they will be able to raise themselves up to a level where they can afford clean water and medicine. We don’t want that to happen
I hope it does happen, but without my money and under a different government. because if the population advances itself, then they will have (after everything factored) a more powerful country.
Could you elaborate on that statement? So I would have to agree with MKOlester. Can’t let those beings thrive.
Keep your racist tendencies to yourself. I want the state to fail, not the people. In case you forgot, millions of ethnic Chinese are born and raised American. Boycott products manufactured in or built with components from communist China
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Hello.. I did not mean the population density. I meant thriving in the sense of more technological / agricultural etc. growth. Why does everyone think I’m trolling? Whatever. You must be Pro-Life huh? John
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wait a sec. If we do give our money to China then they will be able to raise themselves up to a level where they can afford clean water and medicine. We don’t want that to happen because if the population advances itself, then they will have (after everything factored) a more powerful country. So I would have to agree with MKOlester. Can’t let those beings thrive. John Unless your trolling, then you know nothing about the population problem in China. The families with many kids are poor and rural, not the ones with jobs and western-style lives. Chinese have no interest in growing any further, in fact they know the population pain more than us. It’s the very poor and distant who resort to more children to help put food on the table and help ensure the survival of the family lineage. Giving them access to more stable necessities will allow them to make the changes they’ve been wanting to make. I’m sure you’ve expended all of your intelligence for the week writing your last tirade, so if you don’t reply I’ll understand. Dave
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At the very worst, I can cover the seat with a sheet to keep mud off and let it dry when I get home, but again, I fear the smell of mildew. I tend to go with inexpensive seat covers in my 4Runner. Get something that fits, then run them till they get trashed and get something new. I like the fabric covers, you can throw them in the washer if needed. I don’t do a lot of mud but its usually the floor mats that get most of that.
Husky liners and cow print seat covers. Show your support for wildlife —
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been wanting to recover the seats in my ‘95 Bronco with something other than the grey cloth that’s there. I’d like something that’s more or less water proof. Or something that I can get muddy and be able to wipe or spray off. Anyone here know of any choices that may be good? Vinyl may be OK, but I really don’t like the way it wears and gets smooooth and shinny. Our work trucks have worn vinyl and I already slip n’ slide on those seats enough without being wet, plus when it’s 115 outside vinals no fun to sit on. Ditto with the tasteless clear plastic covers. I’ve seen the "body glove" style that are supposedly made of the same stuff as a wet suite. That soaks up water like no tomorrow, though and I can imagine sweat would make a not pleasant smell after fermenting for a while in the cover/coushin. Buying a set of the new seats I see in books is oot of the question due to $$$. (500 for A seat????) Is there anything out there that will do what I want, or am I SOL? At the very worst, I can cover the seat with a sheet to keep mud off and let it dry when I get home, but again, I fear the smell of mildew.
I tend to go with inexpensive seat covers in my 4Runner. Get something that fits, then run them till they get trashed and get something new. I like the fabric covers, you can throw them in the washer if needed. I don’t do a lot of mud but its usually the floor mats that get most of that.
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I made a home made seat cover for my bench seat out of fleece. It cost me about $5 from a fabric store. Its really nice in the winter and not to bad in the summer. The biggest problem is that it is over a vinyl seat so it tends to slip around a bit. Eric – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been wanting to recover the seats in my ‘95 Bronco with something other than the grey cloth that’s there. I’d like something that’s more or less water proof. Or something that I can get muddy and be able to wipe or spray off. Anyone here know of any choices that may be good? Vinyl may be OK, but I really don’t like the way it wears and gets smooooth and shinny. Our work trucks have worn vinyl and I already slip n’ slide on those seats enough without being wet, plus when it’s 115 outside vinals no fun to sit on. Ditto with the tasteless clear plastic covers. I’ve seen the "body glove" style that are supposedly made of the same stuff as a wet suite. That soaks up water like no tomorrow, though and I can imagine sweat would make a not pleasant smell after fermenting for a while in the cover/coushin. Buying a set of the new seats I see in books is oot of the question due to $$$. (500 for A seat????) Is there anything out there that will do what I want, or am I SOL? At the very worst, I can cover the seat with a sheet to keep mud off and let it dry when I get home, but again, I fear the smell of mildew. — Maximum Frog Talk to me at ICQ # 6227244 See me in an amazingly -RED- bronco I’m not compromising for anything. I take it off road!!
Eric Brown Office 134 Talbot Lab 209a,b,c Talbot 244-0774 WWW http://www.geocities.com/en-brown/ http://www.geocities.com/en-brown/resume.html
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I’ve been wanting to recover the seats in my ‘95 Bronco with something other than the grey cloth that’s there. I’d like something that’s more or less water proof. Or something that I can get muddy and be able to wipe or spray off. Anyone here know of any choices that may be good? Vinyl may be OK, but I really don’t like the way it wears and gets smooooth and shinny. Our work trucks have worn vinyl and I already slip n’ slide on those seats enough without being wet, plus when it’s 115 outside vinals no fun to sit on. Ditto with the tasteless clear plastic covers. I’ve seen the "body glove" style that are supposedly made of the same stuff as a wet suite. That soaks up water like no tomorrow, though and I can imagine sweat would make a not pleasant smell after fermenting for a while in the cover/coushin. Buying a set of the new seats I see in books is oot of the question due to $$$. (500 for A seat????) Is there anything out there that will do what I want, or am I SOL? At the very worst, I can cover the seat with a sheet to keep mud off and let it dry when I get home, but again, I fear the smell of mildew. — Maximum Frog Talk to me at ICQ # 6227244 See me in an amazingly -RED- bronco I’m not compromising for anything. I take it off road!!
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