Filed under: cotton fabric
Question:
I forgot a couple things. SC-200 is listed as "for industrial use only" (although they’ve sold me many gallons) – just get an MSDS every time. Know that the product is probably if not definitely FATAL IF SWALLOWED, and do *whatever you have to do* to ensure that no child ever, ever gets their hands on a bottle of it. It makes the towels useless for what they were designed to do. Addicted to fabric softener for your towels? Try not using it for an entire month, and tell me that you didn’t notice that they were TON’s more effective in drying your body after a shower. No FABRIC SOFTENER! NO WIRE HANGERS !!!!!!! Also, you can use 1/4 of a cup of bleach. The one cup thing does wear out your cloth items after a while. The proponents of the one-cup method will often counter (effectively) with, "Well, Gary, by the time I have ‘worn out’ my kitchen towels, I was probably sick of them anyway, and wanted new ones, so who cares?" which was hard to argue against. According to Steven Covey, "The Main thing, is to keep the main thing the main thing." I have failed this principle miserably, but possibly given some other information, perhaps about products, perhaps about my state of mind, likely both. Who cares, it didn’t cost ya anything, and if it amused you, then I’m pleased. Gary
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I mostly agree with Jessica. You must NOT allow your towels to sit in the washer while wet, because they grow molds, and smell "funny" even after having been dried. Wash, then put in dryer within 22.5 minutes. Use a decent detergent, like Tide clear, or All clear. If they are smelly and nasty, by all means do use some Clorox 2. You generally don’t have to use that much detergent for towels, because they usually aren’t that dirty (you dry your "just washed" body with them, after showering, how dirty can they be?) You can also add a cup of ammonia to the wash water - buy cheap ammonia, it’s all the same. Although "parson’s clear ammonia" the blue colored one, for washing glass smells the best, in my opinion. I do not use liquid chlorine bleach on anything, due to it’s strong oxidizing power, which tends to wear out clothing, or any fabrics it touches over the years. If something is especially disgusting or filthy (cat urine/feces residue on a towel, then either throw it away – my personal choice – or use liquid chlorine bleach in the wash water. 97.453 percent of people who have this smelly towel problem washed their towels just fine, and then left them overnight, and threw them in the dryer the next morning, or afternoon. Wash, then dry – no delay – I almost guarantee you will solve your entire problem. While on the subject, many people have funky washers, due to all the various soap residues, smears of fabric softeners, general dirt, etc. Here is your next "fairly easy" project, that yields pleasing results. Get a bottle of Clorox Clean Up. It is a spray bottle, but I would HIGHLY recommend that you NOT EVER spray it, EVER. Take the sprayer unit off, and wipe down the entirety of the lid on your washer (top first) then inside, use liberal (dripping off cloth) amount on the cloth when you POUR the product onto the cloth. Do NOT spray it !!!! DO NOT! Then, wait about 15 minutes, for the product to attack, then take a toothbrush, or other suitable smaller brush, and scrub all the gook and crud and mold (which you can’t see, but it’s there) We’re talking inside lid, by the hinge, all on the surface of the inside lid, any dispensers (often removable) for bleach or fabric softener or detergent. Just clean the HELL out of it. Rinse brush several times in hot water in kitchen sink during this procedure, as it will become saturated with thick soap residues, rendering it less effective. Again, allow the product to sit for 5 minutes, when you feel you have cleaned it well in everywhere you could reach. Rescrub any places that may have possible dirt/scum. Use hot water from a saucepan to rinse the inside lid, hinges, all around the interior of the entry-way into your washer. Any uncleaned places will be disclosed! Scrub again. Repeat rinse. Now, if you really want to attack these odd smells, get some Clorox brand (recommend "fresh scent") bleach, and add 1 1/2 cups to the FILLED washer, which you have filled with COLD water. Run the washer on high agitate (like you would for non-delicate clothing, or towels. If you have a towel you don’t care that much about, throw it in (it it’s clean!) Before the rinse cycle starts, stop the washer, and let it sit for 30 minutes, start a timer to remind you – you do not want to let that sit overnight by accident. After 30 minutes, re-set the dial to maximum wash time, and re-wash the one towel again, in the same cold bleachy water. (Hot/warm water tend to cause the breakdown of the bleach into its component parts, rendering the solution less "disinfectant", and liberates very smelly gases into your house – use cold water) Once the washer has washed itself with cold bleach water twice, allow it to go through the rinse cycle, and you "should" be done. Leave the lid in the upright open position, and allow everything to air-dry. Leave the light on over the washer opening all night and all the next day, while the lid is open. Molds and fungi find their most inhospitable "residences" in dry, clean, bleached, lighted, and non-warm areas. Allow a fan to blow into the washer tub all day, for excellent drying, making the place not safe for a germ. If you like, to be extremely sure, you can contact your local distributor for Spartan Chemicals (an AWESOME line of products, and not expensive at all) In your case that would be the Midland Paper Company, in Appleton. Give them a call, make sure they will sell you a couple cans of Steri-Phene (a hospital grade phenolic disinfectant, with outstanding deodorizing capability to boot, and a very pleasant scent – if you buy the "fresh scent" version). It is described as "clean-fresh fragrance", as opposed to the other one, which is described differently. Trust me, this product is unrivaled, and I know this for fact. The product number is 6081. I buy it by the case, but have bought a can or two many times from the local distributor. Do not buy the "Spring breeze" version of this. The one you want is a red and white can, with red cap, and says, in BLUE letters on the front, "Clean…Fresh Fragrance". When your washer (and dryer interior) are completely rinsed of any bleach, and have been dry for over 24 hours, spray the entire interior and all around lid hinges, various other areas in the entry to your washer with this spray, till they are visibly wet. Allow the product to air-dry, do not wipe off. TB-Cide is also an excellent disinfection aerosol, but is not as well-fragranced as Steri-Phene. Do not (DO NOT!) use your dryer until all of the disinfectant spray has This company makes an excellent, top-quality line of cleaning products for industrial and healthcare applications, and their distributors are also an excellent source of information. A few of their other products which I consider indispensable are "Spar-creme" liquid scouring creme, shines metal, and makes the bottom of copper pots look brand new in about one minute. "CDC-10" – Product number 3220 (by the gallon, but sprayed/applied from quart sprayers) – an incredible bathrom cleaner – kills all bacteria in only 5 minutes, instead of the conventional 10 minute kill time. Amazing deodorization capability too. Totally excellent and amazing product. "SC-200" = product number 2200 – a rather caustic (pH-13.6 undiluted) cleaner that will clean a barbeque grill or a greasy mess like it was no big deal at all. I have yet to see any product that worked as well, much less any better, and it’s only like 12 bucks a gallon. They recommend diluting it at 4 to 12 ounces per gallon of water, but I cheat, I just pour some on a wet rag, and apply. It does contain 2-butoxyethanol (butyl) and sodium hydroxide, as well as nonyl phenol ethoxylate and sodium xylene sulfonate, which are all categorized as hazardous ingredients by the United States Environmental Protection Agency. No household should be without it. It must NEVER, NEVER be accessible to children, NEVER. Always wear gloves (prefer elbow length) when using this product. It is definitely a corrosive alkaloid. Get an MSDS on SC-200 if you buy a gallon, and read it. Awesome cleaning results though, in a fraction of the time you’d spend using the crap they’ll sell you in W**** or the grocery store (the most expensive way to buy cleaners by the way, in a grocery store). SC-200 is not a granola-girl product – but who cares? The house must sparkle, and I must not spend all day on that pursuit. Check out www.spartanchemical.com Am I possibly a little manic on steroids? I’ll let you be the judge, but I have given you some EXCELLENT information, which I have tested against other industrial products for years, and these recommendations are rock-solid. Gary RN (and industrial/healthcare hygiene/sanitation/infection control expert) It does matter if they sit in the washer, especially if it’s warm, they are clean but they aren’t sterile microbes will grow. I don’t have a problem with odd smelling towels. My bath towels are
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Response:
Other clothes never seem to have a problem for some reason, it just always seems to be the heaiver towels that have a problem… I do use the largest cycle available with extra rinse…. I can try less towels…. jamie
Response:
Unless your towels are filthy, I’d use LESS than what they recommend, for soap. Towels are normally used to dry us off after a shower, they’re not dirty really. 1/2 a capful of soap – plenty. No fabric softener, EVER.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hmm.. I use the normal amout of soap, because I am afarid of overdoing it and having the cartoon like room full of soap… Maybe I will try some more soap… thanks…
Response:
Hmm.. I use the normal amout of soap, because I am afarid of overdoing it and having the cartoon like room full of soap… Maybe I will try some more soap… thanks…
Oh, now that’s just one of those petty annoyances you simply DON’T NEED in life. You shouldn’t need a lot of soap for towels, but no harm in trying. You might also try a heavy duty cycle, if you have one. Or try putting only a few towels in the washer and setting it on "large load", that really would be my first guess — too many towels, not enough water. How do your other clothes smell? Mason Barge "If this is coffee, please bring me some tea. If this is tea, please bring me some coffee." — Abraham Lincoln
Response:
Hmm.. I use the normal amout of soap, because I am afarid of overdoing it and having the cartoon like room full of soap… Maybe I will try some more soap… thanks…
Response:
Hi gary, Yes, I am deffinatly amused by your entire post. First off, that is a great idea about really cleaning out the washer really well. I cleaned the top and stuff not too long ago, but didnt think that much about the inside, since that is always "washed". I am going to go start the washing process shortly on my washer as you suggested. I do have some commercial disenfectant also. I get most stuff from www.teschchemical.com in menasha WI. I have purchased cod from midland before with one of my old business, but they were really iffy just selling me paper without like 16 referances, even on a COD account, so I dont know if the local midland is just really anal or what, I just remember they were a PIA, when I purchased things from them. Perhaps I am not always as dilgiant as I would like to think about changin the wash to the dryer on time….. I will have to watch this and make sure I promptly move it from the washer to dryer… Also you Brought up a new point that I am going to a start a new thread on.. Very important!!!! Thanks so much as always! I love your suggestions!!! Jamie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I forgot a couple things. SC-200 is listed as "for industrial use only" (although they’ve sold me many gallons) – just get an MSDS every time. Know that the product is probably if not definitely FATAL IF SWALLOWED, and do *whatever you have to do* to ensure that no child ever, ever gets their hands on a bottle of it. It makes the towels useless for what they were designed to do. Addicted to fabric softener for your towels? Try not using it for an entire month, and tell me that you didn’t notice that they were TON’s more effective in drying your body after a shower. No FABRIC SOFTENER! NO WIRE HANGERS !!!!!!! Also, you can use 1/4 of a cup of bleach. The one cup thing does wear out your cloth items after a while. The proponents of the one-cup method will often counter (effectively) with, "Well, Gary, by the time I have ‘worn out’ my kitchen towels, I was probably sick of them anyway, and wanted new ones, so who cares?" which was hard to argue against. According to Steven Covey, "The Main thing, is to keep the main thing the main thing." I have failed this principle miserably, but possibly given some other information, perhaps about products, perhaps about my state of mind, likely both. Who cares, it didn’t cost ya anything, and if it amused you, then I’m pleased. Gary I mostly agree with Jessica. You must NOT allow your towels to sit in the washer while wet, because they grow molds, and smell "funny" even after having been dried. Wash, then put in dryer within 22.5 minutes. Use a decent detergent, like Tide clear, or All clear. If they are smelly and nasty, by all means do use some Clorox 2. You generally don’t have to use that much detergent for towels, because they usually aren’t that dirty (you dry your "just washed" body with them, after showering, how dirty can they be?) You can also add a cup of ammonia to the wash water - buy cheap ammonia, it’s all the same. Although "parson’s clear ammonia" the blue colored one, for washing glass smells the best, in my opinion. I do not use liquid chlorine bleach on anything, due to it’s strong oxidizing power, which tends to wear out clothing, or any fabrics it touches over the years. If something is especially disgusting or filthy (cat urine/feces residue on a towel, then either throw it away – my personal choice – or use liquid chlorine bleach in the wash water. 97.453 percent of people who have this smelly towel problem washed their towels just fine, and then left them overnight, and threw them in the dryer the next morning, or afternoon. Wash, then dry – no delay – I almost guarantee you will solve your entire problem. While on the subject, many people have funky washers, due to all the various soap residues, smears of fabric softeners, general dirt, etc. Here is your next "fairly easy" project, that yields pleasing results. Get a bottle of Clorox Clean Up. It is a spray bottle, but I would HIGHLY recommend that you NOT EVER spray it, EVER. Take the sprayer unit off, and wipe down the entirety of the lid on your washer (top first) then inside, use liberal (dripping off cloth) amount on the cloth when you POUR the product onto the cloth. Do NOT spray it !!!! DO NOT! Then, wait about 15 minutes, for the product to attack, then take a toothbrush, or other suitable smaller brush, and scrub all the gook and crud and mold (which you can’t see, but it’s there) We’re talking inside lid, by the hinge, all on the surface of the inside lid, any dispensers (often removable) for bleach or fabric softener or detergent. Just clean the HELL out of it. Rinse brush several times in hot water in kitchen sink during this procedure, as it will become saturated with thick soap residues, rendering it less effective. Again, allow the product to sit for 5 minutes, when you feel you have cleaned it well in everywhere you could reach. Rescrub any places that may have possible dirt/scum. Use hot water from a saucepan to rinse the inside lid, hinges, all around the interior of the entry-way into your washer. Any uncleaned places will be disclosed! Scrub again. Repeat rinse. Now, if you really want to attack these odd smells, get some Clorox brand (recommend "fresh scent") bleach, and add 1 1/2 cups to the FILLED washer, which you have filled with COLD water. Run the washer on high agitate (like you would for non-delicate clothing, or towels. If you have a towel you don’t care that much about, throw it in (it it’s clean!) Before the rinse cycle starts, stop the washer, and let it sit for 30 minutes, start a timer to remind you – you do not want to let that sit overnight by accident. After 30 minutes, re-set the dial to maximum wash time, and re-wash the one towel again, in the same cold bleachy water. (Hot/warm water tend to cause the breakdown of the bleach into its component parts, rendering the solution less "disinfectant", and liberates very smelly gases into your house – use cold water) Once the washer has washed itself with cold bleach water twice, allow it to go through the rinse cycle, and you "should" be done. Leave the lid in the upright open position, and allow everything to air-dry. Leave the light on over the washer opening all night and all the next day, while the lid is open. Molds and fungi find their most inhospitable "residences" in dry, clean, bleached, lighted, and non-warm areas. Allow a fan to blow into the washer tub all day, for excellent drying, making the place not safe for a germ. If you like, to be extremely sure, you can contact your local distributor for Spartan Chemicals (an AWESOME line of products, and not expensive at all) In your case that would be the Midland Paper Company, in Appleton. Give them a call, make sure they will sell you a couple cans of Steri-Phene (a hospital grade phenolic disinfectant, with outstanding deodorizing capability to boot, and a very pleasant scent – if you buy the "fresh scent" version). It is described as "clean-fresh fragrance", as opposed to the other one, which is described differently. Trust me, this product is unrivaled, and I know this for fact. The product number is 6081. I buy it by the case, but have bought a can or two many times from the local distributor. Do not buy the "Spring breeze" version of this. The one you want is a red and white can, with red cap, and says, in BLUE letters on the front, "Clean…Fresh Fragrance". When your washer (and dryer interior) are completely rinsed of any bleach, and have been dry for over 24 hours, spray the entire interior and all around lid hinges, various other areas in the entry to your washer with this spray, till they are visibly wet. Allow the product to air-dry, do not wipe off. TB-Cide is also an excellent disinfection aerosol, but is not as well-fragranced as Steri-Phene. Do not (DO NOT!) use your dryer until all of the disinfectant spray has This company makes an excellent, top-quality line of cleaning products for industrial and healthcare applications, and their distributors are also an excellent source of information. A few of their other products which I consider indispensable are "Spar-creme" liquid scouring creme, shines metal, and makes the bottom of copper pots look brand new in about one minute. "CDC-10" – Product number 3220 (by the gallon, but sprayed/applied from quart sprayers) – an incredible bathrom cleaner – kills all bacteria in only 5 minutes, instead of the conventional 10 minute kill time. Amazing deodorization capability too. Totally excellent and amazing product. "SC-200" = product number 2200 – a rather caustic (pH-13.6 undiluted) cleaner that will clean a barbeque grill or a greasy mess like it was no big deal at all. I have yet to see any product that worked as well, much less any better, and it’s only like 12 bucks a gallon. They recommend diluting it at 4 to 12 ounces per gallon of water, but I cheat, I just pour some on a wet rag, and apply. It does contain 2-butoxyethanol (butyl) and sodium hydroxide, as well as nonyl phenol ethoxylate and sodium xylene sulfonate, which are all categorized as hazardous ingredients by the United States Environmental Protection Agency. No household should
… read more »
Response:
HI, This will sound weird, but as you know, I recently moved out my long term X-girlfriend. I can not seem to get my bath towels to smell nice and clean and fresh on a consistant basis. I use soap, hot water, sometimes color safe bleach, sometimes, I try baking soda, and it never seems to be consistant, basically when i go to use one of the damn towels, I often find it has a oder that I find offensive. Any suggestions for getting more consistant results? I always let them dry well in the dryer, and I noramlly dont let them sit in the washer a long time once they are done, but what should it really matter anyway, they should be clean when they are done in the wash, right??? I know this sounds weird, but I hate having these bad smelling towels!! j
Response:
It does matter if they sit in the washer, especially if it’s warm, they are clean but they aren’t sterile microbes will grow. I don’t have a problem with odd smelling towels. My bath towels are washed in cold water with liquid detergent (make sure you are using enough!), then right into the dryer until they are completely dry. I don’t use fabric softener sheets as they effect the absorbancy of the cotton fibres. For kitchen towels its the same deal but with a cup of bleach added. Jess
Response:
I mostly agree with Jessica. You must NOT allow your towels to sit in the washer while wet, because they grow molds, and smell "funny" even after having been dried. Wash, then put in dryer within 22.5 minutes. Use a decent detergent, like Tide clear, or All clear. If they are smelly and nasty, by all means do use some Clorox 2. You generally don’t have to use that much detergent for towels, because they usually aren’t that dirty (you dry your "just washed" body with them, after showering, how dirty can they be?) You can also add a cup of ammonia to the wash water - buy cheap ammonia, it’s all the same. Although "parson’s clear ammonia" the blue colored one, for washing glass smells the best, in my opinion. I do not use liquid chlorine bleach on anything, due to it’s strong oxidizing power, which tends to wear out clothing, or any fabrics it touches over the years. If something is especially disgusting or filthy (cat urine/feces residue on a towel, then either throw it away – my personal choice – or use liquid chlorine bleach in the wash water. 97.453 percent of people who have this smelly towel problem washed their towels just fine, and then left them overnight, and threw them in the dryer the next morning, or afternoon. Wash, then dry – no delay – I almost guarantee you will solve your entire problem. While on the subject, many people have funky washers, due to all the various soap residues, smears of fabric softeners, general dirt, etc. Here is your next "fairly easy" project, that yields pleasing results. Get a bottle of Clorox Clean Up. It is a spray bottle, but I would HIGHLY recommend that you NOT EVER spray it, EVER. Take the sprayer unit off, and wipe down the entirety of the lid on your washer (top first) then inside, use liberal (dripping off cloth) amount on the cloth when you POUR the product onto the cloth. Do NOT spray it !!!! DO NOT! Then, wait about 15 minutes, for the product to attack, then take a toothbrush, or other suitable smaller brush, and scrub all the gook and crud and mold (which you can’t see, but it’s there) We’re talking inside lid, by the hinge, all on the surface of the inside lid, any dispensers (often removable) for bleach or fabric softener or detergent. Just clean the HELL out of it. Rinse brush several times in hot water in kitchen sink during this procedure, as it will become saturated with thick soap residues, rendering it less effective. Again, allow the product to sit for 5 minutes, when you feel you have cleaned it well in everywhere you could reach. Rescrub any places that may have possible dirt/scum. Use hot water from a saucepan to rinse the inside lid, hinges, all around the interior of the entry-way into your washer. Any uncleaned places will be disclosed! Scrub again. Repeat rinse. Now, if you really want to attack these odd smells, get some Clorox brand (recommend "fresh scent") bleach, and add 1 1/2 cups to the FILLED washer, which you have filled with COLD water. Run the washer on high agitate (like you would for non-delicate clothing, or towels. If you have a towel you don’t care that much about, throw it in (it it’s clean!) Before the rinse cycle starts, stop the washer, and let it sit for 30 minutes, start a timer to remind you – you do not want to let that sit overnight by accident. After 30 minutes, re-set the dial to maximum wash time, and re-wash the one towel again, in the same cold bleachy water. (Hot/warm water tend to cause the breakdown of the bleach into its component parts, rendering the solution less "disinfectant", and liberates very smelly gases into your house – use cold water) Once the washer has washed itself with cold bleach water twice, allow it to go through the rinse cycle, and you "should" be done. Leave the lid in the upright open position, and allow everything to air-dry. Leave the light on over the washer opening all night and all the next day, while the lid is open. Molds and fungi find their most inhospitable "residences" in dry, clean, bleached, lighted, and non-warm areas. Allow a fan to blow into the washer tub all day, for excellent drying, making the place not safe for a germ. If you like, to be extremely sure, you can contact your local distributor for Spartan Chemicals (an AWESOME line of products, and not expensive at all) In your case that would be the Midland Paper Company, in Appleton. Give them a call, make sure they will sell you a couple cans of Steri-Phene (a hospital grade phenolic disinfectant, with outstanding deodorizing capability to boot, and a very pleasant scent – if you buy the "fresh scent" version). It is described as "clean-fresh fragrance", as opposed to the other one, which is described differently. Trust me, this product is unrivaled, and I know this for fact. The product number is 6081. I buy it by the case, but have bought a can or two many times from the local distributor. Do not buy the "Spring breeze" version of this. The one you want is a red and white can, with red cap, and says, in BLUE letters on the front, "Clean…Fresh Fragrance". When your washer (and dryer interior) are completely rinsed of any bleach, and have been dry for over 24 hours, spray the entire interior and all around lid hinges, various other areas in the entry to your washer with this spray, till they are visibly wet. Allow the product to air-dry, do not wipe off. TB-Cide is also an excellent disinfection aerosol, but is not as well-fragranced as Steri-Phene. Do not (DO NOT!) use your dryer until all of the disinfectant spray has been This company makes an excellent, top-quality line of cleaning products for industrial and healthcare applications, and their distributors are also an excellent source of information. A few of their other products which I consider indispensable are "Spar-creme" liquid scouring creme, shines metal, and makes the bottom of copper pots look brand new in about one minute. "CDC-10" – Product number 3220 (by the gallon, but sprayed/applied from quart sprayers) – an incredible bathrom cleaner – kills all bacteria in only 5 minutes, instead of the conventional 10 minute kill time. Amazing deodorization capability too. Totally excellent and amazing product. "SC-200" = product number 2200 – a rather caustic (pH-13.6 undiluted) cleaner that will clean a barbeque grill or a greasy mess like it was no big deal at all. I have yet to see any product that worked as well, much less any better, and it’s only like 12 bucks a gallon. They recommend diluting it at 4 to 12 ounces per gallon of water, but I cheat, I just pour some on a wet rag, and apply. It does contain 2-butoxyethanol (butyl) and sodium hydroxide, as well as nonyl phenol ethoxylate and sodium xylene sulfonate, which are all categorized as hazardous ingredients by the United States Environmental Protection Agency. No household should be without it. It must NEVER, NEVER be accessible to children, NEVER. Always wear gloves (prefer elbow length) when using this product. It is definitely a corrosive alkaloid. Get an MSDS on SC-200 if you buy a gallon, and read it. Awesome cleaning results though, in a fraction of the time you’d spend using the crap they’ll sell you in W**** or the grocery store (the most expensive way to buy cleaners by the way, in a grocery store). SC-200 is not a granola-girl product – but who cares? The house must sparkle, and I must not spend all day on that pursuit. Check out www.spartanchemical.com Am I possibly a little manic on steroids? I’ll let you be the judge, but I have given you some EXCELLENT information, which I have tested against other industrial products for years, and these recommendations are rock-solid. Gary RN (and industrial/healthcare hygiene/sanitation/infection control expert)
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It does matter if they sit in the washer, especially if it’s warm, they are clean but they aren’t sterile microbes will grow. I don’t have a problem with odd smelling towels. My bath towels are washed in cold water with liquid detergent (make sure you are using enough!), then right into the dryer until they are completely dry. I don’t use fabric softener sheets as they effect the absorbancy of the cotton fibres. For kitchen towels its the same deal but with a cup of bleach added. Jess
Response:
Question:
yeah but they’re totally different. mek is like acetone They are both Ketones, as the `-one’ ending indicates. mekp is polyester resin catalyst and is an eye tissue corrosive. Don’t ever spill a full bottle of it in 20L of resin… Don’t ask 
(in summer too!)
I mixed up a half coke can of polyester resin once. got so hot I couldnt hold it even with gloves.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I know that good results can be achieved with the Poly Fiber process however I’ve also seen some poor results – it seems to be harder to get it right than with Ceconite and Randolph dope, which is what I’d recommend. When it came time to recover the Decathlon we used Classic Aero dope – supposedly equivalent to Randolph. Aviaquip was able to mix the Classic Aero on the spot whereas Randolph colours came by ship from the USA. All are now owned by the same company. Seems that Classic Aero has been discontinued – good as I may get violent if I ever run across the person who sold it to me. Both the Stits and Randolph are mixed by Aviaquip in Melbourne now. You can use polyurethane on top of Stits or Randolph per their STC apparently. I would recommend against that on fabric – it is difficult to repair the finish and will eventually crack and chip off.
the problem is that you will eventually have to repair something on a fabric finish. polyfiber with polytone remains repairable forever. the problem with any dope over polyester fabric is that the dope does not adhere to the polyester and will eventually come away (with about the strength of a 3m post it note’s adhesive) using polyurethane over anything renders it unrepairable. …but hell this isnt a religion to me. use what you like. Stealth Pilot – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – sincere recommendation recover in PolyFiber. use the chemicals as they say to. use polytone paint.
Response:
Thanks for the information – things have changed since I owned an Auster! JD
sincere recommendation recover in PolyFiber. use the chemicals as they say to. use polytone paint. methylethylketone on a rag will wipe off the polytone all the way back to fabric if need be. (use gloves because it soaks through your skin and stuffs up internal organs) the chemicals have worked for me from tins over 12 years old. use new polytack though. polyfiber with polytone paint is repairable for the entire life of the covering. it is wonderful stuff. Aviaquip in melbourne stock it. Stealth Pilot.
Response:
methylethylketone on a rag will wipe off the polytone all the way back to fabric if need be. (use gloves because it soaks through your skin and stuffs up internal organs)
Correct. MEK and MEKP (methyl ethyl ketone peroxide) are bad buggers of chemicals – not good tucker – be careful.
Response:
methylethylketone on a rag will wipe off the polytone all the way back to fabric if need be. (use gloves because it soaks through your skin and stuffs up internal organs) Correct. MEK and MEKP (methyl ethyl ketone peroxide) are bad buggers of chemicals – not good tucker – be careful.
yeah but they’re totally different. mek is like acetone mekp is polyester resin catalyst and is an eye tissue corrosive. Stealth Pilot
Response:
I know that good results can be achieved with the Poly Fiber process however I’ve also seen some poor results – it seems to be harder to get it right than with Ceconite and Randolph dope, which is what I’d recommend. When it came time to recover the Decathlon we used Classic Aero dope – supposedly equivalent to Randolph. Aviaquip was able to mix the Classic Aero on the spot whereas Randolph colours came by ship from the USA. All are now owned by the same company. Seems that Classic Aero has been discontinued – good as I may get violent if I ever run across the person who sold it to me. Both the Stits and Randolph are mixed by Aviaquip in Melbourne now. You can use polyurethane on top of Stits or Randolph per their STC apparently. I would recommend against that on fabric – it is difficult to repair the finish and will eventually crack and chip off. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – sincere recommendation recover in PolyFiber. use the chemicals as they say to. use polytone paint.
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You can use polyurethane on top of Stits or Randolph per their STC apparently. I would recommend against that on fabric – it is difficult to repair the finish and will eventually crack and chip off.
Never done it but that is what I expect would happen.
Response:
yeah but they’re totally different. mek is like acetone
They are both Ketones, as the `-one’ ending indicates. mekp is polyester resin catalyst and is an eye tissue corrosive.
Don’t ever spill a full bottle of it in 20L of resin… Don’t ask (in summer too!) — Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it’s all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.
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Aircraft fabric ala Tiger Moth, Pitts Special, what’s it made of. Thanx.
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Then: http://www.vintagefabrics.co.uk/fabric/ Now: http://www.ceconite.com/
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Aircraft fabric ala Tiger Moth, Pitts Special, what’s it made of. Thanx.
originally aircraft fabric was grade A cotton doped in place, ribstitched for security then covered with a silver paint which was aluminium powder suspended in dope. a stronger natural fabric was Irish Linen which was also doped in place, rib stitched and finished in the silver paint. quite often the first layer of dope had a fungicide in it as well. in these natural finishes the entire tightness of the fabric is due to the shrinking of the dope. a more recent system is based on the original research of Ray Stits. he discovered that polyester fabric goes through a shrinking process after weaving. he found that unshrunk polyester fabric could be glued to a structure then manually shrunk to provide the necessary taughtness. Ceconite is a polyester fabric doped to the structure, ribstitched then painted in a silver dope. How the hell it works I dont know. Thats usually what a factory pitts uses. PolyFiber is the original Stits process. The unshrunk polyester fabric is glued in place shrunk, ribstitched and covered with a silver opaquing paint based on aluminium powder in vinyls. The opaquing in all cases is to prevent UV deterioration of the fabric. the two styles of process, natural and man made fibers, are different and cannot be safely mixed. you either use one method in its entirety or you use another. Steve Wittman made the mistake of doping on a polyester fabric and died. of the fabric finishes available PolyFiber is far and away the best system going. it is twice the strength of the natural fibers and when properly opaqued has almost unlimited life. there are other finishes like razorback (glass fiber cloth) that I havent mentioned and this is by no means an exhaustive description. Stealth Pilot
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aircraft fabric ala Tiger Moth, Pitts Special, what’s it made of. Thanx. originally aircraft fabric was grade A cotton doped in place, ribstitched for security then covered with a silver paint which was aluminium powder suspended in dope. a stronger natural fabric was Irish Linen which was also doped in place, rib stitched and finished in the silver paint. quite often the first layer of dope had a fungicide in it as well. in these natural finishes the entire tightness of the fabric is due to the shrinking of the dope. a more recent system is based on the original research of Ray Stits. he discovered that polyester fabric goes through a shrinking process after weaving. he found that unshrunk polyester fabric could be glued to a structure then manually shrunk to provide the necessary taughtness. Ceconite is a polyester fabric doped to the structure, ribstitched then painted in a silver dope. How the hell it works I dont know. Thats usually what a factory pitts uses. PolyFiber is the original Stits process. The unshrunk polyester fabric is glued in place shrunk, ribstitched and covered with a silver opaquing paint based on aluminium powder in vinyls. The opaquing in all cases is to prevent UV deterioration of the fabric. the two styles of process, natural and man made fibers, are different and cannot be safely mixed. you either use one method in its entirety or you use another. Steve Wittman made the mistake of doping on a polyester fabric and died. of the fabric finishes available PolyFiber is far and away the best system going. it is twice the strength of the natural fibers and when properly opaqued has almost unlimited life. there are other finishes like razorback (glass fiber cloth) that I havent mentioned and this is by no means an exhaustive description. Stealth Pilot
Thanks for the information – things have changed since I owned an Auster! JD
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Question:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any questions about/regarding the commonwealth…? … What you label as communism, I label as freedom from monied evil. If one wants to be communist, let them be communist for free. If one wants to be capitalist, let them be capitalist for free. If one wants to be socialist, let them be socialist for free. If one want to be [fill in pet label], let them be [] for free. How would this freedom from ‘monied evil’ (why don’t you just call it greed) affect the lifestyle of a pilot compared to a taxi driver? An engineer and a cashier. If everything is free, who gets the nice stuff? Who gets the big houses and to go to the good schools with new clothes? In this world of yours, does everybody have the same standard of living and share everything equally? Would every job be worth the same? Would money just disappear? Does life become completely volunteer? Would bartered trades have no value judgements? Would profit be illegal? What happens when a thing people need is in short supply? Would there be social macro-economic metamorphosis of 10 billion people? Who would run distribution? As intriguing as the idea of a moneyless society is, and on top of the immense prospect of it’s implementation, there is work to be done convincing the comfortable who see nothing but utopian anarchy rhetoric. War for profit will end. Poverty for profit will end. Crime for profit will end. Disease for profit will end. Charity replaces profit, right? In a world of terrorism. All in-common goods/services free for/by/with all. All un-common goods/services bartered for/by/with all. or Flood the free market with free money for all. Ignore the cries of monied contol freaks bleating economic dogmalogik for they protect/defend/serve monied evil. All war, poverty, crime, disease, fear, terrorism is created by/for/with monied evil by lovers of money in order to make a profit from war, poverty, crime, disease, fear, and terrorism. usuryfree.net reformation.org/moneychangers.html abolishmoney.com hope this helps pass it on d Before I answer the questions you’ve posed, a few basics need to be understood. First, ALL in-common goods/services are free for ALL, worldwide. Second, ALL un-common goods/services are free to be bartered for by ALL, worldwide. Third, everybody wants/needs to do something in life. If not, life becomes meaningless. Fourth, everybody wants/needs/desires things that make life easier/more pleasant. Fifth, money limits any/all technology. Once the limiting power of money is understood and changed, shelved technology will answer many questions/problems created by old technology. Q…How would freedom from monied evil affect Pilot v taxi driver… A…Both are transportation related. Basic transportation is an in-common good/service, free for all worldwide. For whatever reason, getting from point a to point b is a necessity for everybody. A pilot/driver who flies/drives does what they do because they enjoy flying/driving others from point a to point b for a living/hobby/endeavor. The benefits they derive are based on them getting to do what they enjoy doing, while sharing in all free in-common goods/services in their travels around the world, or around the block. But a pilot need much more skill and training to do his job and his services benefit far more people than a taxi driver. How would his greater contribution be recognized? More barter "points"?
Self-gratification. Growth. Self-esteem. Pride. A place in history. Things that adults normally strive for. Transportation, whether cab or plane, are in-common needs and are therefore free for all. No barter "points", unless one wants to offer an extraordinary experience with ‘their’ plane/cab skills perhaps. Q…Engineer v cashier… A…No need for cashiers when there is no money to collect for in-common goods/services. Perhaps some cashiers might want to become engineers in their newly found free time. Both share in all in-common goods/services, free for all. If a cashier does not want to become an engineer, they could choose any other endeavor to pursue. Through the pursuit of what interests them, they enable others to do what they want to do in life. What if their pursuit has no benefit for society at large? Do they still get the free rent, food, clothing, health care, education, etc. like everyone else? What about those that are lazy, and do no work whatsoever? Do they also get the societal benefits?
Of course. All in-common goods/services are free for all, no matter the vocation/hobby/pursuit chosen by any individual. A rhetorical question for you…what benefit does a solo mountain climber in pursuit of mountains to climb offer society at large? Or a ski-bum? Or an accountant? Or a retail clerk? Q…Who gets the nice stuff… A…Everybody gets the nice stuff, because there is no longer any bad stuff, unless one wants to barter for bad stuff of course. C’mon. There is always nice stuff. Have you never worn a shirt that was more comfortable than another because of the fabric? Have you never driven a car that was superior in performance to another? Have you never used a computer with a larger screen and faster internet connection? I could go on and on. Of course there is nice stuff, and most people want it. The nice stuff will always be around, like the big houses. How will you regulate who gets it?
All in-common goods/services will consist of nice stuff. If one wants nicer stuff, such as silk versus cotton, barter for the silk. There is no need to regulate the distribution of bad/nice/nicer stuff as the market will distribute stuff, for free…benefitting all in the process of freely distributed in-common goods/services. Q…Who gets the big house… A…Big or not, basic housing is an in-common good/service/need for all. Barter for lavish design appointments. Barter what for a big house? Your services in a high-skilled job? Tomatoes from your back-yard garden? Barter with whom? Who owns the house? What if the owner has several people vying for the house? Is he allowed to take the richest barter? The elimination of money does not eliminate value.
Barter for marble vs linoleum, gold fixtures vs porcelain, designer goods vs martha stewart, etc etc… Home builders build homes because they enjoy building homes and are offering an in-common good/service, therefore free for all. Do not forget that home builders share in all other in-common goods/services offered free for all for the good of all. If a home builder wants to build a home for him/herself, all the home builder need do is put in a request for a new home with another home builder doing an in-common good/service for others. Both win. The homeowner owns the house. If the homeowner wants to barter the home for something else, barter terms set by the barterers rule. The home retains value and remains valuable, in the eye of the beholder/barterer. Q…Who gets good schools… A…Schooling is an in-common good/service/need, free for all, no matter the reputation of the school. Any/all education has no cost. Sure, we know. School is free. In my country is essentially is already – no big change. There is however a difference in the quality of education across the institutions. Will economically equalizing people automatically intellectually equalize them also? As not all teachers are as proficient or effective at performing their duties as each other, how will you level out the academic hills and valleys? Will the teachers all be evaluated and spread across the grid equally in terms of their quality? How will you stop people in trades of high skill associating and wanting to work with people of the same calibre? How will you stop the natural instincts of free association and eneterprise?
Why would anyone want to stop free association/enterprise? Everyone is free to pursue whatever they choose to pursue? If one is dis-satisfied with their education, go someplace else to get educated. Q…Who gets new clothes… A…Basic clothing is an in-common good/service/need. Designer clothing is bartered for. Bartered with what? Turnip? What if someone else wants the clothing and they have electricity to offer? What of intrinsic and subjective value?
Clothing is a basic in-common need…free for all. Barter for finer duds. Q…Same standard of living…? A…Basic standards of living is an in-common need. Barter for higher standards. I am getting the impression that one can barter for whatever one needs above basic necessity.
Your impression is correct. Q…Share everything equally…? A…Share in-common goods/services equally. Barter for un-common goods/services. Okay, so the essentials of survival are free to everyone, and the fluff can be aquired through trade. How is that any different or better than the welfare, taxes, and money of modern Liberal Capitalism?
Because un-common goods/services can be acquired without money if so chosen. Q…Every job be worth the same…? A…Yes and no. If the job that is undertaken is for an un-common good/service, the worth of the job is set by those bartering for the worth of the job. The stock market.
If one wants to barter for a money supply controlled by others, yes… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -If the job is to share in-common
… read more »
Response:
Do lazy people enjoy the same benefits as productive people in this communist utopia of yours? Everyone gets copious amounts of leisure time…for free. Of course they do, while the robots take care of manufacturing.
If they want. If not, the robots can take vacations as well. Have you been to a country lately where people have "copious amounts of leisure time"?
No, but I’ve been to many villages that have copious amounts of leisure time. They generally have copious amounts of poverty, illiteracy, disease, and malnutrition too.
Poverty is created by monied interests. Disease is created by monied interests. Malnutrition is created by monied interests. Illiteracy[dumbing down] is created by monied interests. Have you never heard the expression " idle hands are the devils"? The Swiss have.
Have you never heard the expression "for the love of money is the root for all evil"? I take exception to your label of what is being proposed however. Freedom from the power of money is NOT communism/communistic. Freedom cannot be labeled as anything…but freedom. Do you have a problem with freedom Mr Click? No, I have a problem with Utopian Anarchistic Communism, which is precisely what you propose, whether you know it or not.
The labels you choose to tag freedom with are yours Mr Click. I don’t propose utopia. I propose YOUtopia… I don’t propose anarchy. I propose self-government… I don’t propose communism. I propose freedom FROM monied evil… Freedom to do nothing with inevitably lead to people doing nothing and others taking advantage of the apathy.
So you propose that people NEED to be forced to do something. Any idea’s on who should be chosen to do the forcing Mr Click? Perhaps when you are older you will better understand human nature.
Perhaps when you are older you will better understand monied evil. But I guess at this point you think you can change it.
Yup. Anything less is slavery. Do you want to be a slave Mr Click? If so, why?
Response:
Do lazy people enjoy the same benefits as productive people in this communist utopia of yours? Everyone gets copious amounts of leisure time…for free.
Of course they do, while the robots take care of manufacturing. Have you been to a country lately where people have "copious amounts of leisure time"? They generally have copious amounts of poverty, illiteracy, disease, and malnutrition too. Have you never heard the expression " idle hands are the devils"? The Swiss have. I take exception to your label of what is being proposed however. Freedom from the power of money is NOT communism/communistic. Freedom cannot be labeled as anything…but freedom. Do you have a problem with freedom Mr Click?
No, I have a problem with Utopian Anarchistic Communism, which is precisely what you propose, whether you know it or not. Freedom to do nothing with inevitably lead to people doing nothing and others taking advantage of the apathy. Perhaps when you are older you will better understand human nature. But I guess at this point you think you can change it.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any questions about/regarding the commonwealth…? … What you label as communism, I label as freedom from monied evil. If one wants to be communist, let them be communist for free. If one wants to be capitalist, let them be capitalist for free. If one wants to be socialist, let them be socialist for free. If one want to be [fill in pet label], let them be [] for free. How would this freedom from ‘monied evil’ (why don’t you just call it greed) affect the lifestyle of a pilot compared to a taxi driver? An engineer and a cashier. If everything is free, who gets the nice stuff? Who gets the big houses and to go to the good schools with new clothes? In this world of yours, does everybody have the same standard of living and share everything equally? Would every job be worth the same? Would money just disappear? Does life become completely volunteer? Would bartered trades have no value judgements? Would profit be illegal? What happens when a thing people need is in short supply? Would there be social macro-economic metamorphosis of 10 billion people? Who would run distribution? As intriguing as the idea of a moneyless society is, and on top of the immense prospect of it’s implementation, there is work to be done convincing the comfortable who see nothing but utopian anarchy rhetoric. War for profit will end. Poverty for profit will end. Crime for profit will end. Disease for profit will end. Charity replaces profit, right? In a world of terrorism. All in-common goods/services free for/by/with all. All un-common goods/services bartered for/by/with all. or Flood the free market with free money for all. Ignore the cries of monied contol freaks bleating economic dogmalogik for they protect/defend/serve monied evil. All war, poverty, crime, disease, fear, terrorism is created by/for/with monied evil by lovers of money in order to make a profit from war, poverty, crime, disease, fear, and terrorism. usuryfree.net reformation.org/moneychangers.html abolishmoney.com hope this helps pass it on d Before I answer the questions you’ve posed, a few basics need to be understood. First, ALL in-common goods/services are free for ALL, worldwide. Second, ALL un-common goods/services are free to be bartered for by ALL, worldwide. Third, everybody wants/needs to do something in life. If not, life becomes meaningless. Fourth, everybody wants/needs/desires things that make life easier/more pleasant. Fifth, money limits any/all technology. Once the limiting power of money is understood and changed, shelved technology will answer many questions/problems created by old technology. Q…How would freedom from monied evil affect Pilot v taxi driver… A…Both are transportation related. Basic transportation is an in-common good/service, free for all worldwide. For whatever reason, getting from point a to point b is a necessity for everybody. A pilot/driver who flies/drives does what they do because they enjoy flying/driving others from point a to point b for a living/hobby/endeavor. The benefits they derive are based on them getting to do what they enjoy doing, while sharing in all free in-common goods/services in their travels around the world, or around the block.
But a pilot need much more skill and training to do his job and his services benefit far more people than a taxi driver. How would his greater contribution be recognized? More barter "points"? Q…Engineer v cashier… A…No need for cashiers when there is no money to collect for in-common goods/services. Perhaps some cashiers might want to become engineers in their newly found free time. Both share in all in-common goods/services, free for all. If a cashier does not want to become an engineer, they could choose any other endeavor to pursue. Through the pursuit of what interests them, they enable others to do what they want to do in life.
What if their pursuit has no benefit for society at large? Do they still get the free rent, food, clothing, health care, education, etc. like everyone else? What about those that are lazy, and do no work whatsoever? Do they also get the societal benefits? Q…Who gets the nice stuff… A…Everybody gets the nice stuff, because there is no longer any bad stuff, unless one wants to barter for bad stuff of course.
C’mon. There is always nice stuff. Have you never worn a shirt that was more comfortable than another because of the fabric? Have you never driven a car that was superior in performance to another? Have you never used a computer with a larger screen and faster internet connection? I could go on and on. Of course there is nice stuff, and most people want it. The nice stuff will always be around, like the big houses. How will you regulate who gets it? Q…Who gets the big house… A…Big or not, basic housing is an in-common good/service/need for all. Barter for lavish design appointments.
Barter what for a big house? Your services in a high-skilled job? Tomatoes from your back-yard garden? Barter with whom? Who owns the house? What if the owner has several people vying for the house? Is he allowed to take the richest barter? The elimination of money does not eliminate value. Q…Who gets good schools… A…Schooling is an in-common good/service/need, free for all, no matter the reputation of the school. Any/all education has no cost.
Sure, we know. School is free. In my country is essentially is already – no big change. There is however a difference in the quality of education across the institutions. Will economically equalizing people automatically intellectually equalize them also? As not all teachers are as proficient or effective at performing their duties as each other, how will you level out the academic hills and valleys? Will the teachers all be evaluated and spread across the grid equally in terms of their quality? How will you stop people in trades of high skill associating and wanting to work with people of the same calibre? How will you stop the natural instincts of free association and eneterprise? Q…Who gets new clothes… A…Basic clothing is an in-common good/service/need. Designer clothing is bartered for.
Bartered with what? Turnip? What if someone else wants the clothing and they have electricity to offer? What of intrinsic and subjective value? Q…Same standard of living…? A…Basic standards of living is an in-common need. Barter for higher standards.
I am getting the impression that one can barter for whatever one needs above basic necessity. Q…Share everything equally…? A…Share in-common goods/services equally. Barter for un-common goods/services.
Okay, so the essentials of survival are free to everyone, and the fluff can be aquired through trade. How is that any different or better than the welfare, taxes, and money of modern Liberal Capitalism? Q…Every job be worth the same…? A…Yes and no. If the job that is undertaken is for an un-common good/service, the worth of the job is set by those bartering for the worth of the job.
The stock market. If the job is to share in-common goods/services the job is worth the same as others doing jobs that contribute to the in-common good.
Trade unions. You are not proposing anything revolutionary. It makes one wonder why change at all to your neo-Communism when it will function the same on may levels but with the handicap of not having a common unit of value asessment? It’s like getting rid of rulers and tape measures and going back to to measuring things in the length of limbs; one still measures, only the unit of reference changes, albeit with cumbersome effects. Q…Would money just disappear? A…Not necessarily. Money could be used as a barter tool for those interested in collecting money for un-common goods/services/bartered items in order to trade/barter for other un-common goods/services offered for money.
You really need to chill on the vernacular gymnastics. It is interesting that you have to get so complex, and frankly convoluted, to explain something so simple. If I decipher what you say properly, money would be reserved only for luxurious items, and all the basic necessities of life would be free. Does this not seem like a welfare state with a elite class to you? Is this really what you are advocating? Q…Does life become completely volunteer? A…Basic’ly, yes. Everybody gets to choose/volunteer what they want to do in life, making life as difficult or easy as one wants to make ones life in order to learn/grow, sharing allthewhile in the free in-common goods/services/products of volunteerism.
That sounds very nice. You will excuse me for using the word Utopian again, but here is where it fits perfectly. Why would anyone want to choose a difficult life when they are free to choose an easy one? What about those that choose a life that is too easy, and does not contribute to the community? Would they be forced to become productive? Who would force them? Would there be police in this Communist Utopia to enforce economic policy, or would they be volunteer too? What if the police got together and demanded that their work be recognized as more than worthy of only the basic necessities, and go on strike? What if they wanted to some "un-common goods/services/products" added to their remuneration? What if the person who had what they wanted did not want what the police were offering in … read more »
Response:
Any questions about/regarding the commonwealth…? … What you label as communism, I label as freedom from monied evil. If one wants to be communist, let them be communist for free. If one wants to be capitalist, let them be capitalist for free. If one wants to be socialist, let them be socialist for free. If one want to be [fill in pet label], let them be [] for free. How would this freedom from ‘monied evil’ (why don’t you just call it greed) affect the lifestyle of a pilot compared to a taxi driver? An engineer and a cashier. If everything is free, who gets the nice stuff? Who gets the big houses and to go to the good schools with new clothes? In this world of yours, does everybody have the same standard of living and share everything equally? Would every job be worth the same? Would money just disappear? Does life become completely volunteer? Would bartered trades have no value judgements? Would profit be illegal? What happens when a thing people need is in short supply? Would there be social macro-economic metamorphosis of 10 billion people? Who would run distribution? As intriguing as the idea of a moneyless society is, and on top of the immense prospect of it’s implementation, there is work to be done convincing the comfortable who see nothing but utopian anarchy rhetoric. War for profit will end. Poverty for profit will end. Crime for profit will end. Disease for profit will end. Charity replaces profit, right? In a world of terrorism. All in-common goods/services free for/by/with all. All un-common goods/services bartered for/by/with all. or Flood the free market with free money for all. Ignore the cries of monied contol freaks bleating economic dogmalogik for they protect/defend/serve monied evil. All war, poverty, crime, disease, fear, terrorism is created by/for/with monied evil by lovers of money in order to make a profit from war, poverty, crime, disease, fear, and terrorism. usuryfree.net reformation.org/moneychangers.html abolishmoney.com hope this helps pass it on d Before I answer the questions you’ve posed, a few basics need to be understood. First, ALL in-common goods/services are free for ALL, worldwide. Second, ALL un-common goods/services are free to be bartered for by ALL, worldwide. Third, everybody wants/needs to do something in life. If not, life becomes meaningless. Fourth, everybody wants/needs/desires things that make life easier/more pleasant. Fifth, money limits any/all technology. Once the limiting power of money is understood and changed, shelved technology will answer many questions/problems created by old technology. Q…How would freedom from monied evil affect Pilot v taxi driver… A…Both are transportation related. Basic transportation is an in-common good/service, free for all worldwide. For whatever reason, getting from point a to point b is a necessity for everybody. A pilot/driver who flies/drives does what they do because they enjoy flying/driving others from point a to point b for a living/hobby/endeavor. The benefits they derive are based on them getting to do what they enjoy doing, while sharing in all free in-common goods/services in their travels around the world, or around the block. Q…Engineer v cashier… A…No need for cashiers when there is no money to collect for in-common goods/services. Perhaps some cashiers might want to become engineers in their newly found free time. Both share in all in-common goods/services, free for all. If a cashier does not want to become an engineer, they could choose any other endeavor to pursue. Through the pursuit of what interests them, they enable others to do what they want to do in life. Q…Who gets the nice stuff… A…Everybody gets the nice stuff, because there is no longer any bad stuff, unless one wants to barter for bad stuff of course. Q…Who gets the big house… A…Big or not, basic housing is an in-common good/service/need for all. Barter for lavish design appointments. Q…Who gets good schools… A…Schooling is an in-common good/service/need, free for all, no matter the reputation of the school. Any/all education has no cost. Q…Who gets new clothes… A…Basic clothing is an in-common good/service/need. Designer clothing is bartered for. Q…Same standard of living…? A…Basic standards of living is an in-common need. Barter for higher standards. Q…Share everything equally…? A…Share in-common goods/services equally. Barter for un-common goods/services. Q…Every job be worth the same…? A…Yes and no. If the job that is undertaken is for an un-common good/service, the worth of the job is set by those bartering for the worth of the job. If the job is to share in-common goods/services the job is worth the same as others doing jobs that contribute to the in-common good. Q…Would money just disappear? A…Not necessarily. Money could be used as a barter tool for those interested in collecting money for un-common goods/services/bartered items in order to trade/barter for other un-common goods/services offered for money. Q…Does life become completely volunteer? A…Basic’ly, yes. Everybody gets to choose/volunteer what they want to do in life, making life as difficult or easy as one wants to make ones life in order to learn/grow, sharing allthewhile in the free in-common goods/services/products of volunteerism. Q…Would barter trades have no value judgements? A…Value judgements are set by those engaged in bartering for un-commonly valued goods/services. Q…Would profit be illegal? A…If you mean monied profit, yes for in-common goods/services. No, for un-common goods/services. Q…What happens when a thing people need is in short supply? A…People make more of the thing that is in short supply. Q…Would there be social macro economic metamorphosis of 10 billion people? A…Yes, at the individual paces chosen by each of the 10 billion…for free. Q…Who runs distribution? A…A worldwide central database funneling wanted/needed/desired goods/services to local/neighborhood clearinghouses worldwide. Each person is tasked with contributing whatever good/service one wants to see distributed for free[in-common], or for profit[un common] in order to benefit all. Q…Charity replaces profit? A…No need for charity when all in-common needs are addressed.
Response:
Do lazy people enjoy the same benefits as productive people in this communist utopia of yours?
Everyone gets copious amounts of leisure time…for free. I take exception to your label of what is being proposed however. Freedom from the power of money is NOT communism/communistic. Freedom cannot be labeled as anything…but freedom. Do you have a problem with freedom Mr Click? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any questions about/regarding the commonwealth…? … What you label as communism, I label as freedom from monied evil. If one wants to be communist, let them be communist for free. If one wants to be capitalist, let them be capitalist for free. If one wants to be socialist, let them be socialist for free. If one want to be [fill in pet label], let them be [] for free. How would this freedom from ‘monied evil’ (why don’t you just call it greed) affect the lifestyle of a pilot compared to a taxi driver? An engineer and a cashier. If everything is free, who gets the nice stuff? Who gets the big houses and to go to the good schools with new clothes? In this world of yours, does everybody have the same standard of living and share everything equally? Would every job be worth the same? Would money just disappear? Does life become completely volunteer? Would bartered trades have no value judgements? Would profit be illegal? What happens when a thing people need is in short supply? Would there be social macro-economic metamorphosis of 10 billion people? Who would run distribution? As intriguing as the idea of a moneyless society is, and on top of the immense prospect of it’s implementation, there is work to be done convincing the comfortable who see nothing but utopian anarchy rhetoric. War for profit will end. Poverty for profit will end. Crime for profit will end. Disease for profit will end. Charity replaces profit, right? In a world of terrorism. All in-common goods/services free for/by/with all. All un-common goods/services bartered for/by/with all. or Flood the free market with free money for all. Ignore the cries of monied contol freaks bleating economic dogmalogik for they protect/defend/serve monied evil. All war, poverty, crime, disease, fear, terrorism is created by/for/with monied evil by lovers of money in order to make a profit from war, poverty, crime, disease, fear, and terrorism. usuryfree.net reformation.org/moneychangers.html abolishmoney.com hope this helps pass it on d Before I answer the questions you’ve posed, a few basics need to be understood. First, ALL in-common goods/services are free for ALL, worldwide. Second, ALL un-common goods/services are free to be bartered for by ALL, worldwide. Third, everybody wants/needs to do something in life. If not, life becomes meaningless. Fourth, everybody wants/needs/desires things that make life easier/more pleasant. Fifth, money limits any/all technology. Once the limiting power of money is understood and changed, shelved technology will answer many questions/problems created by old technology. Q…How would freedom from monied evil affect Pilot v taxi driver… A…Both are transportation related. Basic transportation is an in-common good/service, free for all worldwide. For whatever reason, getting from point a to point b is a necessity for everybody. A pilot/driver who flies/drives does what they do because they enjoy flying/driving others from point a to point b for a living/hobby/endeavor. The benefits they derive are based on them getting to do what they enjoy doing, while sharing in all free in-common goods/services in their travels around the world, or around the block. Q…Engineer v cashier… A…No need for cashiers when there is no money to collect for in-common goods/services. Perhaps some cashiers might want to become engineers in their newly found free time. Both share in all in-common goods/services, free for all. If a cashier does not want to become an engineer, they could choose any other endeavor to pursue. Through the pursuit of what interests them, they enable others to do what they want to do in life. Q…Who gets the nice stuff… A…Everybody gets the nice stuff, because there is no longer any bad stuff, unless one wants to barter for bad stuff of course. Q…Who gets the big house… A…Big or not, basic housing is an in-common good/service/need for all. Barter for lavish design appointments. Q…Who gets good schools… A…Schooling is an in-common good/service/need, free for all, no matter the reputation of the school. Any/all education has no cost. Q…Who gets new clothes… A…Basic clothing is an in-common good/service/need. Designer clothing is bartered for. Q…Same standard of living…? A…Basic standards of living is an in-common need. Barter for higher standards. Q…Share everything equally…? A…Share in-common goods/services equally. Barter for un-common goods/services. Q…Every job be worth the same…? A…Yes and no. If the job that is undertaken is for an un-common good/service, the worth of the job is set by those bartering for the worth of the job. If the job is to share in-common goods/services the job is worth the same as others doing jobs that contribute to the in-common good. Q…Would money just disappear? A…Not necessarily. Money could be used as a barter tool for those interested in collecting money for un-common goods/services/bartered items in order to trade/barter for other un-common goods/services offered for money. Q…Does life become completely volunteer? A…Basic’ly, yes. Everybody gets to choose/volunteer what they want to do in life, making life as difficult or easy as one wants to make ones life in order to learn/grow, sharing allthewhile in the free in-common goods/services/products of volunteerism. Q…Would barter trades have no value judgements? A…Value judgements are set by those engaged in bartering for un-commonly valued goods/services. Q…Would profit be illegal? A…If you mean monied profit, yes for in-common goods/services. No, for un-common goods/services. Q…What happens when a thing people need is in short supply? A…People make more of the thing that is in short supply. Q…Would there be social macro economic metamorphosis of 10 billion people? A…Yes, at the individual paces chosen by each of the 10 billion…for free. Q…Who runs distribution? A…A worldwide central database funneling wanted/needed/desired goods/services to local/neighborhood clearinghouses worldwide. Each person is tasked with contributing whatever good/service one wants to see distributed for free[in-common], or for profit[un common] in order to benefit all. Q…Charity replaces profit? A…No need for charity when all in-common needs are addressed.
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Question:
its just a saftguard with a jocko label
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"Cutukjock" <Cutukj…@Ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:hzh6d.136$Yl4.6@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > Anyone tried a Jocko Jockstrap, are they Sexy, comfy, any good?
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The Judds jockstrap is pretty much like the safetguard (god,I hate that name!) one.The pouch is enormous but I suppose that makes it more comfortable…a bit on the expensive side, I guess its because it is a designer label…must not complain how ever because there aren`t many jocks available in the UK anymore! "Cutukjock" <Cutukj…@Ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:hzh6d.136$Yl4.6@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > Anyone tried a Jocko Jockstrap, are they Sexy, comfy, any good?
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Just sending this in case you did not get my earlier reply…there are very few jocks available here in the UK anymore so I tend to buy from the US. I have several Judds Jockstraps but they are in fact very similar to ther SafeTgard models with the ENORMOUS pouch but they cost rather more perhaps because they are a designer label. Terry "Cutukjock" <Cutukj…@Ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:hzh6d.136$Yl4.6@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > Anyone tried a Jocko Jockstrap, are they Sexy, comfy, any good?
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Hi, Anyone tried a Jocko Jockstrap, are they Sexy, comfy, any good?
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I have a Jocko strap, the pouch seems small, the fabric is pronominally man made (not much cotton). Not to much stretch, keeps things in place well. I find that the large "Jocko Bull Dog" logo on the waist band gets looks in the locker room. Still prefer Bike 10’s. "Cutukjock" <Cutukj…@Ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:hzh6d.136$Yl4.6@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > Anyone tried a Jocko Jockstrap, are they Sexy, comfy, any good?
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Question:
White is a poor color for aircraft because it’s hard to see except against blue sky. Is there a particular reason it’s so popular? -c
White’s the cheapest paint. Iain
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Here in Oregon, where there is often white overcast and snow in the mountains in the winter, there’s a lot of white.
Here in the Midwest we have blue skies and green vegitation. White shows up quite well. — Gene Seibel Hangar 131 – http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html Because I fly, I envy no one.
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The word in most cases is tradition. Back in the days of #2 cotton, we painted the fabric with silver dope and put white over that. It made it last longer, so, we still paint corporate jets white – go figure. I don’t know about the newer composite aircraft, but most fiberglass gliders are restricted by their type certificates on how much and where you can put other colors so you don’t become Icarus in the bright summer sun.
Don, If you look at the aircraft of the ’20s the colors varied hugely. When the small, horizontally opposed engines were developed, allowing for much cheaper airplanes, pioneered by Aeronca, the paint schemes got simpler (apparently in trying to keep costs down), with one primary color…which for some time was yellow. During the post WWII boom Piper was putting out yellow and black airplanes, Cessna had either bare metal or white as the base, Globe had bare metal as did Beech, then white started to creep in to a greater and greater extent. All the best, Rick
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Having done my share of search and rescue missions in the Cascades and the Coast Range, I like the contrast between white airplanes and green trees.
Interesting. So it’s fairly visible against a forest, although I imagine snow might be an issue. -c
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Yes, but back in the 60’s & 70’s standard GA Aircraft were $7k to $15k
today *thrash* TIME MACHINE! TIME MACHIIIIINE! (Art Lacey got his B-17 from the government for $5000 after WWII, wrecked it landing, and they gave him another one.) -c
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White is the best colour for composites because of the thermal effects of dark colours. white keeps the composite just that bit cooler.
Makes sense. -c
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One has to wonder: what completely ignorant A-HOLE makes his aircraft deliberately difficult to see, and then flies into airspace regularly used by student pilots? Ummmm.. The USAF?
USAF jets are a little easier to spot than a camoflage ultralight at 1,200′ AGL five or ten miles out of Class C and Class D airspace though. -c
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Here in Oregon, where there is often white overcast and snow in the mountains in the winter, there’s a lot of white. Here in the Midwest we have blue skies and green vegitation. White shows up quite well.
These are all great answers and thoroughly convincing as to why white is probably the best overall color. If I was painting an airplane, I’d include a stripe or something that would stand out against terrain. I like the previous post about "invasion stripes." ANY EXCUSE TO PUT INVASION STRIPES ON YOUR AIRPLANE IS A GOOD ONE! : One of the ‘152s I fly went from yellow on white to candy apple red and gold on white, with red wingtips and tail. It’s hilarious, but pretty. The owner decided he wanted a candy apple red airplane. Very easy to see now. -c
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Finally it dinged its wing, and the airport put a white "invasion stripe" on that wing. What a difference!
Now that’s what I’m talking about! White is fine but a little unnatural color as a stripe or secondary color might make the aircraft more visible. -c
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Here in Oregon, where there is often white overcast and snow in the mountains in the winter, there’s a lot of white. It seems to me that painting your aircraft white is akin to camoflage. Wouldn’t it be better if airplanes were missile red, cub yellow, construction orange or some other extremely-visible color? Once over Estacada while I was soloing toward my private ticket I saw a camoflaged ultralight puttering along near the airfield over a forest. One has to wonder: what completely ignorant A-HOLE makes his aircraft deliberately difficult to see, and then flies into airspace regularly used by student pilots? That’s suicidal, but I digress: White is a poor color for aircraft because it’s hard to see except against blue sky. Is there a particular reason it’s so popular? -c
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White is a poor color for aircraft because it’s hard to see except against blue sky. Is there a particular reason it’s so popular?
My guesses? Lower solar heating than a dark color, and it works with every accent color you might choose. I like the bright colors, too, though. - Nathan
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Ever see a production line? When the finished airframes come to the paint booth, it is convenient, easy, and efficient to use just one color as a base color and then apply the trim paint separately. If the factory decided that all of their airplanes should be blue, there would be a huge outcry (or, more likely, a decrease in sales) because owners like contrasting trim and blue limits their options. Having done my share of search and rescue missions in the Cascades and the Coast Range, I like the contrast between white airplanes and green trees. If anyone wants to paint an airplane orange, red, or yellow they have every right to do so. I have almost run into a black Mooney, however, because I couldn’t see it against a forest background. Bob Gardner
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here in Oregon, where there is often white overcast and snow in the mountains in the winter, there’s a lot of white. It seems to me that painting your aircraft white is akin to camoflage. Wouldn’t it be better if airplanes were missile red, cub yellow, construction orange or some other extremely-visible color? Once over Estacada while I was soloing toward my private ticket I saw a camoflaged ultralight puttering along near the airfield over a forest. One has to wonder: what completely ignorant A-HOLE makes his aircraft deliberately difficult to see, and then flies into airspace regularly used by student pilots? That’s suicidal, but I digress: White is a poor color for aircraft because it’s hard to see except against blue sky. Is there a particular reason it’s so popular? -c
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I guess things have changed, but most light GA manufacturers now allow you to pick both your base and trim colors from a fairly decent spectrum to give you a more-or-less "custom" paint scheme…
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ever see a production line? When the finished airframes come to the paint booth, it is convenient, easy, and efficient to use just one color as a base color and then apply the trim paint separately. If the factory decided that all of their airplanes should be blue, there would be a huge outcry (or, more likely, a decrease in sales) because owners like contrasting trim and blue limits their options. Having done my share of search and rescue missions in the Cascades and the Coast Range, I like the contrast between white airplanes and green trees. If anyone wants to paint an airplane orange, red, or yellow they have every right to do so. I have almost run into a black Mooney, however, because I couldn’t see it against a forest background. Bob Gardner Here in Oregon, where there is often white overcast and snow in the mountains in the winter, there’s a lot of white. It seems to me that painting your aircraft white is akin to camoflage. Wouldn’t it be better if airplanes were missile red, cub yellow, construction orange or some other extremely-visible color? Once over Estacada while I was soloing toward my private ticket I saw a camoflaged ultralight puttering along near the airfield over a forest. One has to wonder: what completely ignorant A-HOLE makes his aircraft deliberately difficult to see, and then flies into airspace regularly used by student pilots? That’s suicidal, but I digress: White is a poor color for aircraft because it’s hard to see except against blue sky. Is there a particular reason it’s so popular? -c
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Yes, but back in the 60’s & 70’s standard GA Aircraft were $7k to $15k today they are $200k+ I would expect to get to chouse my color for near a quarter million dollars.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess things have changed, but most light GA manufacturers now allow you to pick both your base and trim colors from a fairly decent spectrum to give you a more-or-less "custom" paint scheme… Ever see a production line? When the finished airframes come to the paint booth, it is convenient, easy, and efficient to use just one color as a base color and then apply the trim paint separately. If the factory decided that all of their airplanes should be blue, there would be a huge outcry (or, more likely, a decrease in sales) because owners like contrasting trim and blue limits their options. Having done my share of search and rescue missions in the Cascades and the Coast Range, I like the contrast between white airplanes and green trees. If anyone wants to paint an airplane orange, red, or yellow they have every right to do so. I have almost run into a black Mooney, however, because I couldn’t see it against a forest background. Bob Gardner Here in Oregon, where there is often white overcast and snow in the mountains in the winter, there’s a lot of white. It seems to me that painting your aircraft white is akin to camoflage. Wouldn’t it be better if airplanes were missile red, cub yellow, construction orange or some other extremely-visible color? Once over Estacada while I was soloing toward my private ticket I saw a camoflaged ultralight puttering along near the airfield over a forest. One has to wonder: what completely ignorant A-HOLE makes his aircraft deliberately difficult to see, and then flies into airspace regularly used by student pilots? That’s suicidal, but I digress: White is a poor color for aircraft because it’s hard to see except against blue sky. Is there a particular reason it’s so popular? -c
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White is the best colour for composites because of the thermal effects of dark colours. white keeps the composite just that bit cooler.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here in Oregon, where there is often white overcast and snow in the mountains in the winter, there’s a lot of white. It seems to me that painting your aircraft white is akin to camoflage. Wouldn’t it be better if airplanes were missile red, cub yellow, construction orange or some other extremely-visible color? Once over Estacada while I was soloing toward my private ticket I saw a camoflaged ultralight puttering along near the airfield over a forest. One has to wonder: what completely ignorant A-HOLE makes his aircraft deliberately difficult to see, and then flies into airspace regularly used by student pilots? That’s suicidal, but I digress: White is a poor color for aircraft because it’s hard to see except against blue sky. Is there a particular reason it’s so popular? -c
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One has to wonder: what completely ignorant A-HOLE makes his aircraft deliberately difficult to see, and then flies into airspace regularly used by student pilots?
Ummmm.. The USAF? http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=GIGX6.550%…
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white keeps the composite just that bit cooler.
Significantly cooler actually.
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Gotta admit that it has been awhile, but I have visited the New Piper, KingAir, and Katana factories and every plane came out of the paint shop basic white. But I have to agree with the comment that at present prices the purchaser has more leverage. Bob Gardner
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess things have changed, but most light GA manufacturers now allow you to pick both your base and trim colors from a fairly decent spectrum to give you a more-or-less "custom" paint scheme… Ever see a production line? When the finished airframes come to the paint booth, it is convenient, easy, and efficient to use just one color as a base color and then apply the trim paint separately. If the factory decided that all of their airplanes should be blue, there would be a huge outcry (or, more likely, a decrease in sales) because owners like contrasting trim and blue limits their options. Having done my share of search and rescue missions in the Cascades and the Coast Range, I like the contrast between white airplanes and green trees. If anyone wants to paint an airplane orange, red, or yellow they have every right to do so. I have almost run into a black Mooney, however, because I couldn’t see it against a forest background. Bob Gardner Here in Oregon, where there is often white overcast and snow in the mountains in the winter, there’s a lot of white. It seems to me that painting your aircraft white is akin to camoflage. Wouldn’t it be better if airplanes were missile red, cub yellow, construction orange or some other extremely-visible color? Once over Estacada while I was soloing toward my private ticket I saw a camoflaged ultralight puttering along near the airfield over a forest. One has to wonder: what completely ignorant A-HOLE makes his aircraft deliberately difficult to see, and then flies into airspace regularly used by student pilots? That’s suicidal, but I digress: White is a poor color for aircraft because it’s hard to see except against blue sky. Is there a particular reason it’s so popular? -c
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I guess things have changed, but most light GA manufacturers now allow you to pick both your base and trim colors from a fairly decent spectrum to give you a more-or-less "custom" paint scheme…
Probably true of most, but Maule does. George Patterson In Idaho, tossing a rattlesnake into a crowded room is felony assault. In Tennessee, it’s evangelism.
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Customer demand. Aircraft manufacturers have offered an incredible number of colors and combinations over the years. In the ’30s all over yellow with a black lightning bolt was hugely popular with the Aeronca C-2 and C-3, so much so that Piper copied it exactly on the Cub line. The Aeronca "Bathtub" was forgotten while its paint color and scheme became widely known as "Cub yellow". In the ’60s-’80s Cessna would reverse its paint scheme as an option, with the accent color being the base and the white being the accent. It was done from time to time, mostly on airplanes going into Alaska or northern Canada, but it wasn’t very popular. If you saw 200 airplanes parked on the ramp at Cessna in Wichita or at Strother Field, maybe one or two would have the reversed paint scheme. Bare aluminum was popular on and off in the ’40s and ’50s, but horribly hard to care for and it faded away. In the ’50s many of Cessna’s paint schemes were overall bare aluminum with one or two accent colors. White just won out over the years as a base color. You’re right, for visibility things could be better. At one time the CAA toyed with requiring some amount of international orange on all paint jobs. It came to naught. At least few people paint airplanes with the stealth paint job United Airlines used for quite a while (it’s still on some of their airplanes), those airplanes completely disappear at dawn and dusk. All the best, Rick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here in Oregon, where there is often white overcast and snow in the mountains in the winter, there’s a lot of white. It seems to me that painting your aircraft white is akin to camoflage. Wouldn’t it be better if airplanes were missile red, cub yellow, construction orange or some other extremely-visible color? Once over Estacada while I was soloing toward my private ticket I saw a camoflaged ultralight puttering along near the airfield over a forest. One has to wonder: what completely ignorant A-HOLE makes his aircraft deliberately difficult to see, and then flies into airspace regularly used by student pilots? That’s suicidal, but I digress: White is a poor color for aircraft because it’s hard to see except against blue sky. Is there a particular reason it’s so popular? -c
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White just won out over the years as a base color.
A skipper I know is fond of saying: "There are only two colors for a boat, and what damnfool would paint a boat black?" all the best — Dan Ford The Warbird’s Forum www.warbirdforum.com The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org
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Hampton NH airport is surrounded by pine trees. For years we had a J-3 painted in Grasshopper colors; you just couldn’t see it against the ground when it was in the pattern and you were overhead. Finally it dinged its wing, and the airport put a white "invasion stripe" on that wing. What a difference! A while later it got dinged again. We were all sorry that it wasn’t the other wing, so it would have two invasion stripes, but it remained a one-striper till it got sold down the river. all the best — Dan Ford The Warbird’s Forum www.warbirdforum.com The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org
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…snip… White is a poor color for aircraft because it’s hard to see except against blue sky. Is there a particular reason it’s so popular? -c
Probably withstands UV discoloration better than any other color.
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The word in most cases is tradition. Back in the days of #2 cotton, we painted the fabric with silver dope and put white over that. It made it last longer, so, we still paint corporate jets white – go figure. I don’t know about the newer composite aircraft, but most fiberglass gliders are restricted by their type certificates on how much and where you can put other colors so you don’t become Icarus in the bright summer sun.
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It keeps the airplane and the avionics and people inside it cooler. It is also reasonably visible under most conditions. If you wanted maximum visibility on the ground, then you would paint the airplane the same color as those blue tarps, but that might not work so well in the air.
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Question:
I have a sweater that I absolutely **love** that is a size 1X. Rather than give it away, I want to try to shrink it in the laundry. I’d like to turn it into a Medium. I realize this may not work, but it’s no use to me the way it is so I figured I might as well try. So, any suggestions from anyone who may have shrunk a sweater, deliberately or otherwise? Chris 262/144/ (145-150)
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a sweater that I absolutely **love** that is a size 1X. Rather than give it away, I want to try to shrink it in the laundry. I’d like to turn it into a Medium. I realize this may not work, but it’s no use to me the way it is so I figured I might as well try. So, any suggestions from anyone who may have shrunk a sweater, deliberately or otherwise? Chris 262/144/ (145-150) What’s it made of? I shrink cotton sweaters by washing in hot water & then letting them dry flat. Hanging will stretch them back out. A tumble through the dryer might not be bad, but it will lead to pilling. I have one of those shavers that works pretty well. Wool sweaters will shrink in the wash since most are dry clean only, but again you have to be careful of pulls and pilling. If it has any polyester, it probably won’t shrink. Jenn
It says "55% ramie, 45% cotton". Is ramie some kind of polyester? Chris
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I have a sweater that I absolutely **love** that is a size 1X. Rather than give it away, I want to try to shrink it in the laundry. I’d like to turn it into a Medium. I realize this may not work, but it’s no use to me the way it is so I figured I might as well try. So, any suggestions from anyone who may have shrunk a sweater, deliberately or otherwise? Chris 262/144/ (145-150)
What’s it made of? I shrink cotton sweaters by washing in hot water & then letting them dry flat. Hanging will stretch them back out. A tumble through the dryer might not be bad, but it will lead to pilling. I have one of those shavers that works pretty well. Wool sweaters will shrink in the wash since most are dry clean only, but again you have to be careful of pulls and pilling. If it has any polyester, it probably won’t shrink. Jenn
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a sweater that I absolutely **love** that is a size 1X. Rather than give it away, I want to try to shrink it in the laundry. I’d like to turn it into a Medium. I realize this may not work, but it’s no use to me the way it is so I figured I might as well try. So, any suggestions from anyone who may have shrunk a sweater, deliberately or otherwise? Chris 262/144/ (145-150) What’s it made of? I shrink cotton sweaters by washing in hot water & then letting them dry flat. Hanging will stretch them back out. A tumble through the dryer might not be bad, but it will lead to pilling. I have one of those shavers that works pretty well. Wool sweaters will shrink in the wash since most are dry clean only, but again you have to be careful of pulls and pilling. If it has any polyester, it probably won’t shrink. Jenn It says "55% ramie, 45% cotton". Is ramie some kind of polyester? Chris
Ramie is a natural fiber similar to linen. Here’s the definition from fabrics.net: RAMIE is also similar to linen and is a bast of plant fiber. It is natural white in color, has a high luster and an unusual resistance to bacteria and molds. Used in fabrics, and often mistaken for linen, it is extremely absorbent and dries quickly. Ramie has excellent abrasion resistance and has been tested to be three to five times stronger than cotton and twice as strong as flax. It is an inexpensive fiber from an East Asian plant and can be spun or woven into a fabric. Jenn
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a sweater that I absolutely **love** that is a size 1X. Rather than give it away, I want to try to shrink it in the laundry. I’d like to turn it into a Medium. I realize this may not work, but it’s no use to me the way it is so I figured I might as well try. So, any suggestions from anyone who may have shrunk a sweater, deliberately or otherwise? Chris 262/144/ (145-150) What’s it made of? I shrink cotton sweaters by washing in hot water & then letting them dry flat. Hanging will stretch them back out. A tumble through the dryer might not be bad, but it will lead to pilling. I have one of those shavers that works pretty well. Wool sweaters will shrink in the wash since most are dry clean only, but again you have to be careful of pulls and pilling. If it has any polyester, it probably won’t shrink. Jenn It says "55% ramie, 45% cotton". Is ramie some kind of polyester? Chris
Also, forgot to note that it’s possible the material may have been pre-shrunk, but I would go ahead and wash in hot water and set it for a spin through the dryer. Jenn has purposely and not so purposely shrunk clothing in the past
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a sweater that I absolutely **love** that is a size 1X. Rather than give it away, I want to try to shrink it in the laundry. I’d like to turn it into a Medium. I realize this may not work, but it’s no use to me the way it is so I figured I might as well try. So, any suggestions from anyone who may have shrunk a sweater, deliberately or otherwise? Chris 262/144/ (145-150) What’s it made of? I shrink cotton sweaters by washing in hot water & then letting them dry flat. Hanging will stretch them back out. A tumble through the dryer might not be bad, but it will lead to pilling. I have one of those shavers that works pretty well. Wool sweaters will shrink in the wash since most are dry clean only, but again you have to be careful of pulls and pilling. If it has any polyester, it probably won’t shrink. Jenn It says "55% ramie, 45% cotton". Is ramie some kind of polyester? Chris Also, forgot to note that it’s possible the material may have been pre-shrunk, but I would go ahead and wash in hot water and set it for a spin through the dryer. Jenn has purposely and not so purposely shrunk clothing in the past
Turning the sweater inside out will help reduce the pilling. I often wash my sweaters in a large net bag made especially for laundering sweaters. It doesn’t work too well in the dryer as the sweater doesn’t have enough room to dry properly. Beverly
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I have a sweater that I absolutely **love** that is a size 1X. Rather than give it away, I want to try to shrink it in the laundry. I’d like to turn it into a Medium. I realize this may not work, but it’s no use to me the way it is so I figured I might as well try. So, any suggestions from anyone who may have shrunk a sweater, deliberately or otherwise? Chris 262/144/ (145-150)
You don’t mention what the yarn is… Wool? Mohair? Cotton? Purposely shrinking something is a crap shoot since it might not shrink uniformly. One arm smaller than the other, one side shorter, uneven neckline – you get the picture. My DH once put a mohair sweater of mine in the hot wash/dryer an it came out about the size of a 2 year olds. Since you can’t wear it "as is", you don’t have much to lose anyway. Just know that if you do shrink it that the knit will become much tighter and it will be a much firmer texture (not as pliable if that makes sense). Also, if the thread doesn’t shrink it could effect the integrity of the stitches. Let us know what happens. Em
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Heat! Hot water in the washer, hot air in the dryer. But be careful, you might wind up with a toddler-sized sweater… 
So that’s where I messed up. Been having to stay on a diet just to keep wearing the same clothes.
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I have a sweater that I absolutely **love** that is a size 1X. Rather than give it away, I want to try to shrink it in the laundry. I’d like to turn it into a Medium. I realize this may not work, but it’s no use to me the way it is so I figured I might as well try. So, any suggestions from anyone who may have shrunk a sweater, deliberately or otherwise?
Heat! Hot water in the washer, hot air in the dryer. But be careful, you might wind up with a toddler-sized sweater… — J.J. in WA (Change COLD to HOT for e-mail) Start of diet : 251 Current Weight : 232 Original Weight: 275 First Goal : 199
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I have a sweater that I absolutely **love** that is a size 1X. Rather than give it away, I want to try to shrink it in the laundry. I’d like to turn it into a Medium. I realize this may not work, but it’s no use to me the way it is so I figured I might as well try. So, any suggestions from anyone who may have shrunk a sweater, deliberately or otherwise? Chris 262/144/ (145-150)
That’s quite a size drop. I had a wool blend sweater that was an extra large I tried shrinking to about a medium (I’m also an 8 now) and although it did shrink, it shrunk ‘up’ too much, and I couldn’t get my head through it any longer! After I failed miserably, I told a friend about what I did, and she wished I had given it to her instead -Cooper, wishing Chris a better sweater shrinking experience
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a sweater that I absolutely **love** that is a size 1X. Rather than give it away, I want to try to shrink it in the laundry. I’d like to turn it into a Medium. I realize this may not work, but it’s no use to me the way it is so I figured I might as well try. So, any suggestions from anyone who may have shrunk a sweater, deliberately or otherwise? Chris 262/144/ (145-150) You don’t mention what the yarn is… Wool? Mohair? Cotton? Purposely shrinking something is a crap shoot since it might not shrink uniformly. One arm smaller than the other, one side shorter, uneven neckline – you get the picture. My DH once put a mohair sweater of mine in the hot wash/dryer an it came out about the size of a 2 year olds. Since you can’t wear it "as is", you don’t have much to lose anyway. Just know that if you do shrink it that the knit will become much tighter and it will be a much firmer texture (not as pliable if that makes sense). Also, if the thread doesn’t shrink it could effect the integrity of the stitches. Let us know what happens.
Well, I washed it in hot water and dried it in a hot drier. It didn’t shrink noticeably, so it’s in the charity pile . Chris 262/144/ (145-150)
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Yes, I washed one of my cashmere sweaters in hot water and put it in the dryer — it did shrink down enough for me to be able to wear. Good luck! Mary
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a sweater that I absolutely **love** that is a size 1X. Rather than give it away, I want to try to shrink it in the laundry. I’d like to turn it into a Medium. I realize this may not work, but it’s no use to me the way it is so I figured I might as well try. So, any suggestions from anyone who may have shrunk a sweater, deliberately or otherwise? Chris 262/144/ (145-150)
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Question:
Are there any jockstraps specifically designed to hold a cup; perhaps in a fabric pocket? I assume they would be more comfortable than having the cup press directly on your crotch skin.
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You must be new to jockstraps. Yes, there are athletic supporters, generally called cup jocks, which are designed with a fabric cup pocket just as you described. Check out International Jock ( www.internationaljock.com ) for all sorts of jocks, including those that hold cups. And you MUST visit Allkink’s Jockstrap Locker Room ( www.allkink.com ) to see the world’s finest collection of athletic supporters plus some hot pics in the visitor galleries. Allkink’s has a special section in the Collection devoted to cup jocks. ………………………….. Currently I’m wearing a well-seasoned vintage cotton Bike No. 10 jock with the wheel logo and 3 red tracer lines. This fucker has seen many years of happy abuse. It’s beat-up and kinda falling apart but it’s fabulously fragrant and flavorful.
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In article <20040615142304.11031.00000…@mb-m02.aol.com>, wudul…@aol.com (WudULik2) wrote: > Are there any jockstraps specifically designed to hold a cup; perhaps in a > fabric pocket? I assume they would be more comfortable than having the cup > press directly on your crotch skin.
Yes. The pouch of a cup jock typically is a pocket with two snaps at the top to hold it in. Some cup jocks even have a cup pocket of woven cloth instead of knitted. — Jockwoof <jockwoof at timberwoof dot com> jocks: http://www.timberwoof.com/jockwoof/ charter: http://www.timberwoof.com/jockwoof/charter.shtml FAQ: http://www.timberwoof.com/jockwoof/faq.shtml
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> You must be new to jockstraps. Yes, there are athletic supporters, > generally called cup jocks, which are designed with a fabric cup pocket > just as you described.
When I first discovered jocks, I though they only came with the pocket in them. Very uncomfortable. I was so happy when a few years later, I discovered true jocks! Tim
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Question:
There is also a slightly more rigid tubing that is split lengthwise that you can get in computer stores for covering computer cables. I have a cat who chews electrical cords and we have things like ethernet covered with this where it’s in spots he can get to it.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Fred Loxton wrote: > Originally posted only to rec.pets.cats newsgroup, but later thought > some folks on medical newsgroups might be able to suggest something. > Thanks > Hi, > My mother is on oxygen which is supplied from an oxygen concentrator > to the cannular (nasal tube) by a clear plastic tube (like aquarium > tubing). > Her cat loves to chew this tubing resulting in lost oxygen pressure > and several medical crises. The cat has been squirted, yelled at > when caught at it. We > have tried painting the tubing with bitter liquid,hot sauce, soap and > other deterents, to no avail. We have to repair the tube with > electrical tape, but we cannot wrap the whole tube in tape. At > night, we suspend the tubing > from hooks out of the the cats reach, but during the day, as my > mother > moves around, the cat starts chewing. Its quite a long tube so we > can’t alway see when the cat is at it. > Help. My mother loves the cat, but its looking like the cat might > have > to go. > How can we stop the cat chewing the tubing? > Thanks
Had the problem with computer cables and phone cords. There’s a spray that worked quite well. check the pet stores. IIRC it was a "bitter apple" thing – cats do not like it. After a while my cats learned to stay away fron the cables and I ceased application of the spray. — michael No matter how cynical I get, I’m unable to keep up. :^>
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Fred Loxton wrote: > Originally posted only to rec.pets.cats newsgroup, but later thought > some folks on medical newsgroups might be able to suggest something. > Thanks > Hi, > My mother is on oxygen which is supplied from an oxygen concentrator > to the cannular (nasal tube) by a clear plastic tube (like aquarium > tubing). > Her cat loves to chew this tubing resulting in lost oxygen pressure > and several medical crises. The cat has been squirted, yelled at > when caught at it. We > have tried painting the tubing with bitter liquid,hot sauce, soap and > other deterents, to no avail. We have to repair the tube with > electrical tape, but we cannot wrap the whole tube in tape. At > night, we suspend the tubing > from hooks out of the the cats reach, but during the day, as my > mother > moves around, the cat starts chewing. Its quite a long tube so we > can’t alway see when the cat is at it. > Help. My mother loves the cat, but its looking like the cat might > have > to go. > How can we stop the cat chewing the tubing? > Thanks
Can you buy a scat mat and put it under the place where the tubing is? That is basically an electric pet repellant that when the animal steps on it, it gets a mild shock. Cats also have an affinity to stringy snake looking things. The less the tube looks like a snake, the better your chances of him avoiding it. Also, try making a decoy that is easier to play with while disguising the other as best as you can, braking up the sound and shape. Sojo
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I am on BiPAP for breathing at night plus my feeding tube and a gastric suction tube (and yes, they all get tangled up sometimes) and I have a 5 year old ‘kitten’ who loves to chew on plastic…and guess what all the tubes are made of? The only thing we have found that works is making cloth covers for my tubes- seems out of site is out of mind for my cat. For my BiPAP tube I used polar fleece to insulate the tube- I want all the warm air my heated humidifier makes to get to me. For the other tubes I just used light weight cotton fabric- I’m a quilter so I have plenty of cotton fabric on hand. I tape the fabric to the hoses with masking tape…fold back the end a little so it is easier to take off when tubes are changed daily. Now my only problem is that my cat also likes sticky stuff so I have caught him playing with the masking tape on my end but he’s never bit through the tube with a cloth covering yet. The funny thing the actual feeding tube that goes into my stomach is made out of silocone like material and he has no interest in it…which is a good thing- I would hate to have to call my doctor and ask to have my tube replaced because my cat bit it (it has to be replaced every 3 months which is more then enough). GIve the fabric covering a try before banishing the poor kitty and if I can be of any help, let me know- Christine
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Fred Loxton wrote: > How can we stop the cat chewing the tubing?
I would try encasing the tubing in something tougher — you might get a length of plenum cable (the kind of wire with a tough outer casing designed to run through walls) at Home Depot (something like CAT 5 cable ought to work), and strip out the actual wires leaving the outer casing intact. Then thread the 02 tube through the casing and tape it in place on both ends. A dedicated cat could probably eventually gnaw through this casing also, but I think it won’t have the chewy satisfaction value of the medical tubing. This will reduce the flexibility and increase the weight of the tubing somewhat; you might need to use this method on the tube she uses when staying in one place at home and keep another unmodified tube for travel and use away from kitty. Good luck. JGM
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Originally posted only to rec.pets.cats newsgroup, but later thought some folks on medical newsgroups might be able to suggest something. Thanks Hi, My mother is on oxygen which is supplied from an oxygen concentrator to the cannular (nasal tube) by a clear plastic tube (like aquarium tubing). Her cat loves to chew this tubing resulting in lost oxygen pressure and several medical crises. The cat has been squirted, yelled at when caught at it. We have tried painting the tubing with bitter liquid,hot sauce, soap and other deterents, to no avail. We have to repair the tube with electrical tape, but we cannot wrap the whole tube in tape. At night, we suspend the tubing from hooks out of the the cats reach, but during the day, as my mother moves around, the cat starts chewing. Its quite a long tube so we can’t alway see when the cat is at it. Help. My mother loves the cat, but its looking like the cat might have to go. How can we stop the cat chewing the tubing? Thanks
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Question:
What tools do you take on a two day XC? – Mike
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Emergency relief jug & toilet paper :-)
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What tools do you take on a two day XC? – Mike
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Duct tape and a hammer. If it moves and it shouldn’t use the duct tape, it it doesn’t move and it should use the hammer. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Emergency relief jug & toilet paper :-) What tools do you take on a two day XC? – Mike
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What tools do you take on a two day XC? – Mike
I have a canvas tool bag that includes: An ACE hardware 1/4" drive socket set A crescent wrench A set of combination wrenches (box and open end) Screwdriver with two sizes of phillips and flat head bits Two stubby screwdrivers, phillips and flat Small conentional and needle nose vise grips Tire pressure gauge Vacuum pump wrench Safety wire wrench and safety wire Multimeter (volt, amps, ohms Bicycle tire pump I also carry some spare parts, just in case I get trapped at an out of the way place: V-belts for the generators Spare vacuum pump some day want to get a spare starter Several quarts of oil
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Back when I regularly rented a Tiger to carry friends cross-country, I carried: * wrench, 3/8" box+open end * wrench, 7/16" box+open end * wrench, 1/2" box+open end * wrench, crescent, to 1" * socket, 7/8" hex-top deep * safety wire, 4 feet * vice-grips, small * multi-bit screwdriver * electrical tape, 1 roll The only tools I actually used on such trips were the 3/8" wrench and the screwdriver. Bob K.
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Duct tape and a hammer. If it moves and it shouldn’t use the duct tape, it it doesn’t move and it should use the hammer.
Oh great, now I have iced tea in my keyboard… Great Answer…ROFL!!! Jay Beckman Chandler, AZ Student Pilot – KCHD 3.2 Hrs … Nowhere to go but up!!
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A good list… Add 2 spark plugs( KNOWN to be good) & wrench…
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What tools do you take on a two day XC? – Mike I have a canvas tool bag that includes: An ACE hardware 1/4" drive socket set A crescent wrench A set of combination wrenches (box and open end) Screwdriver with two sizes of phillips and flat head bits Two stubby screwdrivers, phillips and flat Small conentional and needle nose vise grips Tire pressure gauge Vacuum pump wrench Safety wire wrench and safety wire Multimeter (volt, amps, ohms Bicycle tire pump I also carry some spare parts, just in case I get trapped at an out of the way place: V-belts for the generators Spare vacuum pump some day want to get a spare starter Several quarts of oil
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Cell phone and a credit card.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What tools do you take on a two day XC? – Mike
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Duct tape and a hammer. If it moves and it shouldn’t use the duct tape, it it doesn’t move and it should use the hammer.
Very good, Rod. :) I have aluminum heat shield tape wrapped around the bottom of my Long EZ main gear legs to shield the fiberglass legs from brake disk heat. A number of people have mistaken the aluminum tape for a duct tape "repair". <sigh David O — http://www.AirplaneZone.com
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Duct tape and a hammer. If it moves and it shouldn’t use the duct tape, it it doesn’t move and it should use the hammer. Oh great, now I have iced tea in my keyboard… Great Answer…ROFL!!! Jay Beckman Chandler, AZ Student Pilot – KCHD 3.2 Hrs … Nowhere to go but up!!
If it’s unsweetened tea you have no problem. If it’s sweet you have ants on the way. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What tools do you take on a two day XC? – Mike I have a canvas tool bag that includes: An ACE hardware 1/4" drive socket set A crescent wrench A set of combination wrenches (box and open end) Screwdriver with two sizes of phillips and flat head bits Two stubby screwdrivers, phillips and flat Small conentional and needle nose vise grips Tire pressure gauge Vacuum pump wrench Safety wire wrench and safety wire Multimeter (volt, amps, ohms Bicycle tire pump I also carry some spare parts, just in case I get trapped at an out of the way place: V-belts for the generators Spare vacuum pump some day want to get a spare starter Several quarts of oil
Modify an open end wrench that will that will fit no nut known to man to loan to people who need to borrow tools. Also carry some safety wire. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
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Damron I was going to suggest "cash" as you run into places who won’t take a CC. For examp;e, a Taxi to get you to a Hotel to RON. Big John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Cell phone and a credit card. What tools do you take on a two day XC? – Mike
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A pair of channel-lock pliers and something to cut safety wire (small pair of dykes) are also very useful. Most of the items in my kit are for dealing with pioneer-era aircraft, but if you’ll allow me a slightly OT post, here’s what I pack for a weekend event with my Wright glider: 14.4v cordless drill w/ 1/4" socket adapter sockets for spar bolts several "common" screwdriver bits for drill ratcheting multi-bit screwdriver pair of dykes (that’d be wire-cutters) pair of slip-joint pliers Swiss Army knife w/ sicssors several sewing needles coping saw w/ fine-tooth blade hacksaw 4 3" c-clamps 400′ roll of #12 waxed linnen cord 50′ 15ga. spring-steel wire 1 spool of cotton thread 1 bottle of yellow glue lots of spare 10-32 screws and nuts 2 yds. spare cotton fabric several 1′ long sticks of spruce and white ash set of tie-down anchors and ropes That is, of course, my kit for a weekend show. If I were going to Kitty Hawk to fly the beast, I’d also drag along 2 spare front-skid assemblies, 2 spare tail assemblies, a spare spar, and probably mount a vise inside my trailer. Oh yeah, and a hellacious supply of beer to bribe unsuspecting spectators into thinking that carrying the glider from the parking lot to the top of the dune was just plane fun! Harry
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What tools do you take on a two day XC? – Mike
Leatherman Supertool and cell phone. cheers, jc
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What tools do you take on a two day XC? – Mike I have a canvas tool bag that includes: An ACE hardware 1/4" drive socket set A crescent wrench A set of combination wrenches (box and open end) Screwdriver with two sizes of phillips and flat head bits Two stubby screwdrivers, phillips and flat Small conentional and needle nose vise grips Tire pressure gauge Vacuum pump wrench Safety wire wrench and safety wire Multimeter (volt, amps, ohms Bicycle tire pump I also carry some spare parts, just in case I get trapped at an out of the way place: V-belts for the generators Spare vacuum pump some day want to get a spare starter Several quarts of oil
This list looks good – IF _ you’re flying a Beech Super E-18 , or something like that. In my RV-4 I have one of those leatherette shave kit bags with pliers,small vise grips,a 1/4" drive ratchet with screwdriver bit holder and multiple types/sizes of bits,a lightweight plug-in bit screwdriver(from Wal-Mart),an 8" Crescent wrench,small bit of safety wire,roll of plastic tape,small aluminum angle pair of wheel chocks and a few paper towels(No toilet paper needed). With a 2" Velcro on the bottom and a matching strip on the front tunnel top it stays put(while right side up). Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X Charleston,Arkansas
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Sandy L: The massage technique which I was taught was to begin the massage at the neck, then shoulder area, then upper arm, then elbow area, then lower arm, then wrist, then hand, then fingers, each time massaging very lightly the skin so it moves UPWARD or INWARD towards the heart. Basically what you said, but starting at the top of the arm column, not the fingers. It is a very gentle massage and I do it myself, almost subconsciously, while watching TV or whatever, and whenever it aches. Ann in PA
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at the neck, then shoulder area, then upper arm, then elbow area, then lower arm, then wrist, then hand, then fingers, each time massaging very lightly the skin so it moves UPWARD or INWARD towards the heart. Hmm, the technique I was taught starts just below the ribs towards the navel, then cleansing breaths, then neck, armpit,upper chest from middle to opposite of lymphedema side, then from upper chest lymphedema side across entire chest, then side chest, then groin, then waist to groin, tnen armpit to groin, then back of lymphedema arm from elbow up to shoulder, then front side up to shoulder, then back from wrist to shoulder, then underside of wrist to shoulder. then back between fingers to shoulder, then milk fingers, then palm side from finger tips to shoulder, then backside finger tips to shoulder, then stomach stretching from four areas toward naval again, then armpit again. then neck–reverse order from before, the 4 deep breaths.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sandy L: The massage technique which I was taught was to begin the massage at the neck, then shoulder area, then upper arm, then elbow area, then lower arm, then wrist, then hand, then fingers, each time massaging very lightly the skin so it moves UPWARD or INWARD towards the heart. Basically what you said, but starting at the top of the arm column, not the fingers. It is a very gentle massage and I do it myself, almost subconsciously, while watching TV or whatever, and whenever it aches. Ann in PA
That provides greater assurance that you will not inadvertently over-fill the lymphatics of any one region, and is therefore a better technique. It takes a bit longer, I think. If there is very much swelling, the extra time would be unquestionably worth it. Jan’s swelling was minimal–she gave up the sleeve after a few months–so it didn’t seem to matter.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is going to be long so I apologize in advance but I figure you should have all the info in order to (hopefully) give me advice. I was wondering how anyone else has dealt with lymphedema. I have some swelling in my hand and a couple of fingers which the docs have determined is lymphedema. They sent me to a physical therapist. I went yesterday and she told me that even though there is only a 6% difference in size that they have to wrap my entire arm and I need to leave this on 23 out of 24 hours. Okay. She wrapped me and it felt kinda fine there but I’m at the point where I can barely move my arm. AND my fingers are more swollen right now than they were before. Let me back up a bit. The other night I moisturized my hands and put on some cotton gloves when I went to bed. I’m sure some of you have done this for badly dry hands. Anyway, I woke up yesterday morning and my fingers and hand almost looked normal. Then I did a "Walk Away the Pounds" tape and my fingers and hand blew up like a balloon. I went to therapy and she showed me how to wrap my arm and told me that this will reduce the swelling in my arm. I told her that it hurt to bend my arm and she undid some of the wrapping and put in a piece of gray foam which really helped at the time. She told me to make sure I use the arm. She was very adamant about it and told me that’s how the wrapping will help me more. Well, by the time I went to bed I was exhausted because to do anything on the computer, crochet, cook, cleanup was all bending my arm and stuff. It took SOOOOOO much more effort to do things that required bending my arm. Plus any time I had my arm bent it started to feel like I was cutting off the circulation to my fingers. You know that feeling of "whoosh" you get when you’ve cut off the circulation to an area and then circulation is restored? Well, I kept getting that feeling every time I straightened my elbow. I feel like I’m not coordinated because of how difficult it is to bend this arm. How am I going to put make up on today? How am I going to be able to go to and participate in ceramics today? Not only does the inside crease of my elbow hurt like hell, but my wrist and little finger are killing me as well. Does this sound normal to anyone? Does anyone have any advice/suggestions to make this bearable? What’s even more upsetting is that my fingers look worse this morning than they did before I was wrapped like an accident victim. I’m really aggravated guys. Can anyone give me any idea if this is right or not? Thanks so much. Lorraine
There are two styles of wrapping. Elastic (Ace(R)) bandages and non-elastic linen or similar fabric. With the elastic wraps, there should ideally be a pressure gradient with the pressure at the fingers greater than at the wrist, the pressure at the wrist greater than in the forearm, and the pressure in the forearm greater than at the elbow. Otherwise, the bandage may obstruct lymph flow, as Kaye suggests, and worsen the swelling. Gradient pressure sleeves can be made to order and (in the US) are usually covered by insurance. For those, measurements are mad of the girth of the arm at intervals up to mid upper arm, the measurements are sent off to the manufacturer, and the sleeve is made so that the pressure increases as you go down. Those usually cover wrist to above the elbow, so separate gloves, usually withou finger tips, are added. The sleeves are hard to put on by yourself; you need to use talc or cornstarch to ease them on. The non-elastic style are probably more popular in Europe, where thye originated. I have no experience with them, but there are people in the Americas who are trained to do that. If you have a spouse or significant other who could help, a technique my wife and I worked out involved having her lie down with the affected arm at the edge of the bed. She would hold on to the front of my T-shirt and I would gently and repeatedly milk the fluid to the shoulder and thence onto the back and chest, where the lymphatics were undisturbed. A lot of lotion is needed for that process; an massage therapist I worked with at one clinic advised using vegetable oil (e.g., Crisco) as better for the skin than the mineral oil in lotion. Care must be taken not to build up too much swelling ahead of the area that is being drained; it may be necessary to go high on the arm, drain that, then go back down and start up again.
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That is exactly what it was like for me which is why when my edema was severely exacerbated by Taxotere last summer I chose not to treat it. The treatment was worse than living with the swelling. Even though I looked like popeye. After chemo the swelling decreased a bit but what is left is permanant and fibrotic. I have limited range of motion in my wrist and hand. Decreased dexterity. Fortunately is it my non dominant arm. Still, I have no regrets. I just couldn’t deal with the wrapping and sleeves. Cathy
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Lorraine, my heart goes out to you. Lymphedema is not any fun. I also have it and have found the treatment to be parydoxical. Some of the treatments used to help control it can actually make it worse, and the recommendations and information given out about it are contradictory. It is so very frustrating at times. I have had two custom sleeves to wear at night. I also have had 3 day-time sleeves, 2 that were custom made. I have also done the wrapping several times. I actually prefer the wrapping because I have found that to be more comfortable, overall, than the sleeves. I should preface that by saying that what I do most often these days is the wrapping but without the finger bandages. However, I did not start out having the swelling in my hand. It started in the upper part of my forearm and progressed upwards. Later I did develop it in my hand and still have that occasionally. If one has lymphedema, one is told not to wear anything constricting. Well, the problem that arises in regard to that is that the sleeves are constricting–at least the day sleeves–which are made of stretchable material. I think one may have rubber in it and the other spandex and, um, ? not quite sure what else. When I put it on in the morning it usually fits without any problem, particularly if I have wrapped or worn a night sleeve. However, as the day goes on–even with the sleeve–my arm swells and the sleeve becomes constricting in the upper arm. It gets quite bad–and has a deep groove in that area from the top of the sleeve. So, the treatment–at least in my case–worsens the lymphedema and for me it seems to have been what caused the problem in the upper arm. As I mentioned I also have 2 night-time sleeves. The first was a Circaid and the next one was a Reid sleeve. Both have something for the hands. I didn’t like what the Circaid came with, and I ordered the Reid sleeve without the hand part. The gal who did the measuring for the Reid sleeve was not at all happy that I didn’t want the hand part. I did get something to put on my hand that could be removed–also made by the same company. I am not overly thrilled with that and generally didn’t use it. The only way to describe it–was it was like my hand was having a mammogram–seriously. I idid find something that worked by accident. I could also use this with my day sleeves too if needed, although I gnerally don’t but don’t have a hand problem usually. One day at the gym I saw a gal with an athletic-type glove that had open finger tips–came up to about top knuckle. It is made of leather and spandex and was from a sporting goods store (Big 5). I cost either $11.99 or $14.99 for the pair. I actually got a pair after I lost my very expensive custom Elvorex (Elvorax?) glove (which I hated) which went with the Elvorex sleeve. It felt so much more comfortable than the custom glove (which also came up to about that height and had open finger tips). One time I misplaced it but discovered that I could turn the other glove inside out and that was more comfortable than the one that was right-side up because the seams were on the outside. Oh, and that’s another thing. I found the first custom Elvorax sleeve uncomfortable because of the seams and the tag. They also left deep groves in my skin. So, for my 2nd sleeve I had the seams on the outside and asked them to leave the tag off. Still I find wrapping alot more comfortable but do not do the finger wrapping. Again, I usually don’t have a problem with my hand. If I do, I wear the sports glove. (I have a 2nd custom glove but don’t find it very comfortable. I am very fortunate. My husband does the wrapping. We videotaped the P.T. doing. I think he now does it better than the P.T. I just had a thought. If the wrapping is that uncomfortable perhaps it shouldn’t be quite that tight. I also use foam in a couple of areas as well. I was still having a problem with my upper arm, though. I found something that I think will help with that. I recently removed some foam shoulder pads from a jacket I had and found that the countour fit quite nicely around my upper arm. Again, sorry to hear of the difficulty and frustration you are having with this. Interestingly, I recently read something that confirmed my suspicions. Current treatment for lymphedema is a bit barbaric. The treatment used today was developed a very long time ago–like about 80+ years ago. It’s hard to believe that medical engineers have not devised a better treatment. I have read that sometimes surgery can be helpful. Liposuction has been used as well as lasar surgery. Hopefully, more effective treatments for lymphedma will soon be developed!
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This is going to be long so I apologize in advance but I figure you should have all the info in order to (hopefully) give me advice. I was wondering how anyone else has dealt with lymphedema. I have some swelling in my hand and a couple of fingers which the docs have determined is lymphedema. They sent me to a physical therapist. I went yesterday and she told me that even though there is only a 6% difference in size that they have to wrap my entire arm and I need to leave this on 23 out of 24 hours. Okay. She wrapped me and it felt kinda fine there but I’m at the point where I can barely move my arm. AND my fingers are more swollen right now than they were before. Let me back up a bit. The other night I moisturized my hands and put on some cotton gloves when I went to bed. I’m sure some of you have done this for badly dry hands. Anyway, I woke up yesterday morning and my fingers and hand almost looked normal. Then I did a "Walk Away the Pounds" tape and my fingers and hand blew up like a balloon. I went to therapy and she showed me how to wrap my arm and told me that this will reduce the swelling in my arm. I told her that it hurt to bend my arm and she undid some of the wrapping and put in a piece of gray foam which really helped at the time. She told me to make sure I use the arm. She was very adamant about it and told me that’s how the wrapping will help me more. Well, by the time I went to bed I was exhausted because to do anything on the computer, crochet, cook, cleanup was all bending my arm and stuff. It took SOOOOOO much more effort to do things that required bending my arm. Plus any time I had my arm bent it started to feel like I was cutting off the circulation to my fingers. You know that feeling of "whoosh" you get when you’ve cut off the circulation to an area and then circulation is restored? Well, I kept getting that feeling every time I straightened my elbow. I feel like I’m not coordinated because of how difficult it is to bend this arm. How am I going to put make up on today? How am I going to be able to go to and participate in ceramics today? Not only does the inside crease of my elbow hurt like hell, but my wrist and little finger are killing me as well. Does this sound normal to anyone? Does anyone have any advice/suggestions to make this bearable? What’s even more upsetting is that my fingers look worse this morning than they did before I was wrapped like an accident victim. I’m really aggravated guys. Can anyone give me any idea if this is right or not? Thanks so much. Lorraine
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